Engine Drivetrain 2nd Gen S Tuner options

Discussion in 'Tuning and Performance' started by Guapish_Fliver, Jul 3, 2016.

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  1. Guapish_Fliver

    Guapish_Fliver New Member

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    #1 Guapish_Fliver, Jul 3, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2016
    Tuner options/problems

    For those of you following the fliver build thread you know that I opted to remove my maf sensor and change the configuration of my intake under the advice of jmtc.

    I opted to go this route to remove the restrictive plumbing and shorten the intake path to the turbo. I am running a ported 47mm turbo.

    JMTC uses Dyno comp in AZ to load their tunes and I have been far less than impressed with the situation over there. Let's just say pissed to put it lightly.

    Jmtc is great to deal with but the shop he is using for this particular service is complete crap. Maybe their tunes are great, if you can get them to load the correct one...

    The last time I sent my ecu in Dyno comp lost the box which was located 5 days after they received it. I paid overnight shipping to get the ecu back before the holiday weekend and when plugged in the car ran worse than ever before. It actually seemed to run stronger before I sent my ecu. Lmfao. I also felt wierd at the time covering the extra shipping costs on behalf of their mistake but I did it anyway as I need the car.

    When I called Dyno comp directly to find out where my brain was, they seemed genuinely irritated that I was not communicating through Arric from jmtc, and made sure to tell me to contact jmtc instead of them with any questions....

    At first I didn't think it was the tune because it had some coils/plugs problems which has since been worked out and the remainder of the engine bay has been replaced. Literally. I know it's not a mechanical issue at this point.. Jmtc wants me to throw more money at it and data log but I feel I shouldn't have to spend more money on a data logging setup when they can't get the tune right in the first place. I thought those were for fine tuning and I have mad cels...

    The car is painfully slow. I'm talking hella slow. The car runs smooth but slower than it ever has been lol. The turbo is new and sounds/blows off/ functions as it should. It just boosts no more than stock... And takes longer to spool...

    The car also threw multiple MAF sensor related codes and the same cat less exhaust cels as before. :mad2:

    None of the prior exhaust codes were deleted either. I think they just shipped me back the same ecu with no tune... I would bet that if you guys un plugged your maf the car would run like mine...

    The fact that I have MAF codes when there is no MAF in the car anymore tells me that the ecu has not even been tuned for the MAF sensor delete "speed density" tune. This type of tune is popular with the M3 guys as it takes pressure readings from the MAP sensor manifold pressure and correlates this to throttle input and rpm.

    The tuner from dyno comp will not be in until next Wednesday and my time and patience are running thin. I'm seriously getting tired of f'ing with this car as it has been going on all spring. I'm wanting to find a tuner that can actually get the type of tune I want done in a reasonable amount of time.

    I'm a little gun shy sending my ecu back to dyno comp as they are apparently finding it difficult to accomplish medial tasks at the moment, let alone the complexities of a custom, high level tune. Plus I'm going to have to wait until this dude from dyno comp gets back from vacation. Uggh, idk why jmtc has to source this kind of work...

    Running a MAF based tune would be a huge ball ache for me as the Jcw intake tube will not fit on the bigger turbo and I would have to re configure the entire intake...

    My questions:

    -Do other tuners require the VIN number prior to tuning? I never supplied the vin and was never asked for one... I noticed manic requires vins and has a memo stating that "pops and bangs" can not be programmed for some 07 cars depending on the vin. I'm thinking that my car may be one of these "special" 07 models and is somehow preventing dyno comp from loading the tune. Idk, I'm just guessing here.

    -Am I the only person you guys have seen with this type of intake setup with the maf delete?

    -Are there other tuners that can tune without maf sensor plugged in? Suggestions?

    -Would an OEM car run with the MAF unplugged? When I plug my maf in outside the intake setup the car dies instantly.

    -I'm thinking about just going with manic and saying ftw. The only problem is that I heard they kill knock sensors and emergency fuel cut function.

    -I chose jmtc because they claim to keep emergency safety features such as knock sensors and emergency fuel cut intact for high level tunes, I would prefer this but now it's just like whatever, I just want the car running correctly.

    I'm getting flighty because I need the car for my extra curricular riding activities. It's the heat of summer and because of spending so much time on this crap, I'm in the worst shape I've ever been for a riding season. I am dangerously out of shape. I am truly at the point of parking the car until winter and buying a cheap ass S10 that works for the summer...

    Something tells me that if I'm patient I can get dyno comp to tune my car correctly, maybe they have too many g63s in there to care about my little fliver at the moment... I'm just curious if I'd be better off throwing my money at someone else... If I made it rain on a stripper at least I wouldn't be all pissed off afterwards..

    There has to be other shops that can handle this type of tune although jmtc is the only one I could find... Not many ppl running pressure tunes on minis I guess.

    I'll call eurotech on Tuesday to see what they have to say, I was just looking for some advice/opinions from people's experiences to see if there are any other options than Manic. Preferably with a similar setup although something tells me that not many ppl are doing this. Edit: the euro guys don't even have maf sensors so maybe a euro tune or something?
     

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  2. Dave.0

    Dave.0 Helix & RMW Powered
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    Most time when people take on a build of this size they go with a stand alone ECU like a ViPEC and have it tuned by Jan of RMW. Manic is just staged can tunes and not really custom.
     
  3. Guapish_Fliver

    Guapish_Fliver New Member

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    #3 Guapish_Fliver, Jul 3, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2016
    Oh no...

    I was told my OEM brain could handle up to 25 psi on a vacuum driven waste gate.

    I'm not a huge fan of the canned tunes either. Manic seems a little big for his britches and I'm not sure the installers can accommodate my little poop stain. They are after all, at the mercy of whatever tunes nick sends them... I'm sure OBW will chime in, I think he's running Manic "stage 4" or whatever. Except he's on manual boost control and a pressure driven waste gate...

    I just want something that runs for now and am willing to take a trip and fiddle around with the real "custom" tunes later this winter or something.

    The car is such a dog right now it stinks. It sure sounds like it's doing something wild but it's not.

    I should re name my build thread "blue balled fliver Guap cost"

    Maybe I should ditch the go fast idea and throw a giant wing and rims on it :idea: (fart)
     
  4. Metalman

    Metalman Well-Known Member
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  5. Guapish_Fliver

    Guapish_Fliver New Member

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    #5 Guapish_Fliver, Jul 4, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2016
    The funny thing is that the car has not mentioned limp mode this time. I've been in limp mode before and it,is always associated with a little icon in the dash..

    Do you think it's alright to drive like this? Without proper a/f mix am I going to destroy o2 sensors or something?

    I would have to imagine it reverts to a rich mix to be safe.

    It seems obvious the car has not been tuned whatsoever. I don't think I need to buy a data logger to tell me that. Lol.
     
  6. Dave.0

    Dave.0 Helix & RMW Powered
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    Who is JMTC ?

    I would call Jan and ask him for advice. (949) 464- 7691 (RMW1)
     
  7. Guapish_Fliver

    Guapish_Fliver New Member

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    Arric Johnston Jm turbo coopers = jmtc
     
  8. Metalman

    Metalman Well-Known Member
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    Yup...

    What Dave.0 said...

    But you need to have a good engine as a starting point if you want Jan to work on it...
     
  9. Dave.0

    Dave.0 Helix & RMW Powered
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    Never heard of them.:nonod:
     
  10. Guapish_Fliver

    Guapish_Fliver New Member

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    He does good turbo/machine work as far as I can tell, and his refurb turbo prices are the best I could find.

    The installer he's using for the tunes is a clown. I'm not sure he has a clue.

    I don't mind calling people out on their bs (dyno comp) Especially if they won't deal with me directly.

    Here's a link for my snail if you want to scope jmtc

    http://www.jmturbocoopers.com/GT-Dominator-Cooper-Turbo-GT28.html
     
  11. Guapish_Fliver

    Guapish_Fliver New Member

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    I had to laugh when I read this. I could only hope my engine is good after replacing literally everything under the hood... The bottom end has been bored/rebuilt as well..

    Name a part. It's been replaced or upgraded.
     
  12. Dave.0

    Dave.0 Helix & RMW Powered
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    Damn those tuning prices seem kinda high, but what do I know.

    As you all ready know all the greatest parts in the perfect build aren't with a ***** if you do not have an excellent tuner to make them all work together.

    I would say give Jan a call and ask his advice / pick his brain. He will tell you what you what any tuner can do with the OEM ECU and what you need a stand alone ECU like a ViPEC for.

    Free advice / second opinions never hurt.
     
  13. Nathan

    Nathan Founder

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    The joy of low price pales in comparison to the pain of poor service / quality.

    Call Jan.
     
  14. Guapish_Fliver

    Guapish_Fliver New Member

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    #14 Guapish_Fliver, Jul 5, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2016
    Ok so here's a few interesting tidbits of what I've been told. I'll try to keep from getting too sidetracked. I figured I would make this public because there is literally no information like this online that I could find from someone actually doing the tunes and comparing information from different tuners. If I read this prior to choosing the tuner and building the car maybe my balls wouldn't ache so bad. I'm a natural skeptic and most people on the forums reside too far up manics ass based on their stage 2 experiences to consider or suggest anything otherwise.

    I did speak to rmw and he seems like a pretty cool bro with an honest no bs opinion. I like a straight shooter.

    Jan says that he has never seen a 47mm run right lmao. He said they are in the testing phase for the stand alone which is not available yet. Everything he said made sense and it seems pretty obvious that the capabilities of the vipec exceed that of the OEM ecu. He did mention seeing several Manic vehicles go boom and concurred that knock sensor functions are either eliminated completely or drastically reduced. He also said that maf based tunes will be more accurate in determining correct load calculations and basically run better/smoother. He said the maf-less speed density tunes may spool quicker shortening the intake path to the turbo and put out slightly more power but not as consistently because the computer is "guessing". Nick from manic and Jzw tuning also prefer maf based tunes. Nick said he has seen 360+ bhp cars on maf based tunes so it's obviously not restrictive, and says he deals with both maf-less and maf based cars so is well versed on the subject. Jan said Americans like tuning to boost pressure and the euro guys like to tune based on load and torque calculations.

    Jzw, jmtc, and rmw, all concur that the high silicon Pistons I chose are made of a softer alloy reducing piston noise, enabling knock sensor function to remain the same. The harder forged Pistons they said will sometimes cause the ecu to think detonation is occurring. Nick from manic said the opposite, stating that the softer supertech Pistons actually make more noise and the only quieter forged piston is mahle. That didn't make sense to me but what do I know, I'm just relaying what I was told. He said knock sensor functions are "softened" and wasn't familiar with "emergency fuel cut" thinking that I was speaking of limp mode. He also said jmtc turbos are Chinese which is simply not true. I do know for certain jmtc builds his own turbos himself in Arizona from Borg Warner cores. I do know he uses different internals/waste gate for the higher level turbos, but nick pretty much seemed to think they are total crap lol.

    Apparently the major malfunction jmtc is having currently is finding the correct "firmware version" of the ecu to code my tune. Jmtc says they have tunes that run great it's just a matter of finding the right bits or part of the ecu to code or something. This can take multiple attempts, which was not what I wanted to hear. Jmtc suggested a power gate obd2 programmer ($300) so they can email me files which I can load to the car myself using the module. If I have to pay for overnight shipping 20 times until they get it right I guess the power gate would pay for itself...:crazy: When searching for the module I found "Jzw" tuning which sells the power gate part with his tunes. I decided to give him a call for a fourth opinion as I get so many conflicting reports.

    Jzw said he is able to custom dyno tune and deals a lot with the Franken turbo setups. He said this will be a better option than loading canned tunes and having to data log if I want it to run right. He seemed to think manic and jmtc will have a hard time matching what he could do without the car on a dyno but he only does maf based tunes which means I will have to re configure my intake again. He agreed the turbo may spool quicker without but is not familiar with speed density tunes yet. Jzw is close enough to where I'm at currently to take the car to him and set it up on the dyno. He said that he does keep all engine emergency safety features intact. This seems like the easiest choice at the moment which I will probably end up doing if jmtc will refund my money and send me a new silicon compressor intake tube for the maf setup. Jzw concurred that sometimes it can take multiple multiple attempts to get the tune loaded correctly and seemed to understand the problem that jmtc is having. He said for that reason he will want me to leave the car with him for 2 days so he can get it done custom style on the dyno. He also said that even if the 45 and 47 mm turbo both max out at the same boost pressure on the stock ecu, that the 47mm will be moving more CFM of air resulting in bigger gains on the same boost pressure... Jzw said the power gate comes with the tune so he can give me several tunes i can load myself including an ethanol E85 tune that he seemed to be all stoked about... In motocross, guys hate ethanol but whatever.

    So next course of action is either buying a power gate if jmtc won't refund the tune and load the tunes myself, or taking it to Jzw for a "custom tune" after re installing my maf... It seems the car will run better with the maf anyway but idk, not according to jmtc, who did build his tunes for his own turbo, stating that the 47mm will not reach peak efficiency and spool slower on a maf based tune. Jmtc said he recommends the 45mm turbo for maf based tunes for that reason...

    I'm probably leaving some things out but hope that makes sense
     
  15. Dave.0

    Dave.0 Helix & RMW Powered
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    Sounds like you got a lot of info and some that you really did not want to hear. (MAF needed) No it is up to how you how want to spend your money with and who.

    Best of luck and keep us updated.
     
  16. Guapish_Fliver

    Guapish_Fliver New Member

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    #16 Guapish_Fliver, Jul 5, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2016
    If I bought that power gate tune through Jzw I could load both maf and maf-less tunes and see who's telling the truth. Lol. An extra $300 for his version tune with the part is chump change at this point. I could use that little thing as a vehicle to load any tune I want if I have the file, and compare them back to back on dyno pulls. The end goal there would be to burst some bubbles.

    I'm dangerous with some information whaachouut
     
  17. MCS02

    MCS02 Moderator
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    Ok I'm old and some would say out of touch. I quit working on cars when FI was still new some cars had it some did not. Alfa still had the mechanical fuel injection. And were just moving to Bosh units. So for the life of me I can not understand why you would get rid of the MAF. This makes no sense. That is important info for mixture. Perhaps you should just rip off all the fuel injection and run a couple side draft Webers. :D

    If you deside to go with the Webers give me a call. I still know how th sync them.
     
  18. Guapish_Fliver

    Guapish_Fliver New Member

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    #18 Guapish_Fliver, Jul 5, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2016
    The side that says rip out the maf claims faster spool time/peak efficiency for a big turbo and more power.

    The other side that says leave the maf in says same power and more accurate/consistent results.

    Lol I'm more of a Keihin than a Weber guy myself and wish I could just throw different jets and needles at it. Have a peep at the plugs and call it good. That would be sweet. A little more in my realm as well let's say.

    I often get frustrated by things I can not comprehend... Apparently the coding is all ones and zeros. Like a special alien morse code or something. I think ze Germans ran it through an enigma machine...
     

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  19. CarlB

    CarlB Active Member

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    In the long post you state that one of the tuners said the 47 MM turbo would make more power and pass more air at the same boost pressure. That isn't possible unless you are way past the efficiency island on the turbo map. The amount of boost is directly related to the weight of the air you are pushing into the engine. You use weight because if the temperature is higher the air expands and at the same boost you have less air. Every turbocharger has a compressor map. Unless you are operating the turbo at the extreme end of the map and in a area the turbo is very inefficient there will not be much difference. If you go on a turbocharger manufacturers web site they have programs to match turbochargers to engines. You need to know the volumetric efficiency of the engine, but you can get close without it.
    I only have experience with turbocharged engines that use a mass air sensor, but I can tell you that a 45 MM turbo will spin up faster than a 47 MM turbo. A larger wheel requires more energy to move. Simple inertia
     
  20. Guapish_Fliver

    Guapish_Fliver New Member

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    I would have no idea what the volumetric efficiency of my engine is. I also do not know how to read compressor maps. What I do know is that everything is ported (head, turbo, manifold), piped, and the cylinders are 77.5mm. The compression is also lowered. That would change the volume metrics in comparison to a stock engine.

    I figured the 47mm would do more work but idk, I guess I'll have to compare some 45mm dyno maps to mine..

    That's why I'm thinking I'm going to get the maf based custom tune instead of having them guess with a canned tune.
     

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