2nd Gen R56 Cooper S Death Rattle

Discussion in '2nd Generation: 2007+ R55 through R61' started by I am A Fool, Feb 18, 2015.

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Is the Death Rattle a Mini Defect?

  1. Yes.

    5 vote(s)
    50.0%
  2. No.

    5 vote(s)
    50.0%
  1. I am A Fool

    I am A Fool New Member

    Feb 18, 2015
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    Hello. I just bought a used 2008 Mini Cooper 2 months ago. Sadly I already need some information and thought the people here might give me the most honest answer.

    My car started making a horrible rattling noise when I started it last week. It has been cold lately and I thought it was an oil problem.

    When I took it to a shop they called it a death rattle and said it is a common Mini defect.

    However when I called Mini Customer Service, they said they had never heard of the issue.

    I have attached a poll question in order to find the truth of the matter.
     
  2. mrntd

    mrntd Well-Known Member
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    There are a number of things that can cause a rattle. Some as simple as loose or rubbing heat shielding or as complex as the timing chain and followers. The 2nd gen cars do have issues with the timing chain. But it doesn't mean the car dead just that it needs to get fixed.

    How many miles are on it?
     
  3. Crashton

    Crashton Club Coordinator

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    I bit more info on your 2008 MINI would help.
    Could be several things. Have you checked the oil lately?
    Do you think MINI customer service would admit such a thing? No way.

    Welcome to M/A
     
  4. Nathan

    Nathan Founder

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    Cooper or Cooper S?
     
  5. 00Mini

    00Mini Well-Known Member

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    Welcome to Motoring Alliance !!
     
  6. Eric@Helix

    Eric@Helix New Member
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    The traditional 'death rattle' is the result of a bad tensioner/timing chain cartridge. The fix is a few bucks, but can easily be done. The most effective preventative measure that can be taken once you have your car fixed is to change the oil religiously. Pay no attention to the factory oil service intervals: change the oil at least every 5K miles. At least.
     
  7. DneprDave

    DneprDave Well-Known Member
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    If you actually said "Death Rattle" to Mini Customer service, I'm not surprised that they said that they haven't heard of it. Had you asked about worn timing chains or timing chain tensioners, they most likely would have had an answer for you.

    Death Rattle, is internet forum slang for a noise from the timing chain, it is not a technical term.
     
  8. nkfry

    nkfry New Member
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    ^^Seconded^^

    Then I would check how much oil is in the car, low oil can and will cause clatter for obvious reasons.

    We don't see many Coopers come into the shop needing timing cassette work, unless run extremely low on oil or ran the dealer recommended schedule.

    I've only done 1 Cooper timing cassette, whereas I've done countless amounts of N14 chain kits, we have started cryogenically treating the chains and tensioners we include in the kits to try and overcome the chain stretch and failure rates of these cars.

    If you wanted to take a cheap route you can try the "updated" tensioner, that is about 1/2" longer and is designed to take up the stretch that occurs over time, but it is only a band-aide.

    Nick
    Detroit Tuned
     
  9. I am A Fool

    I am A Fool New Member

    Feb 18, 2015
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    I have changed the oil every 5,000 miles and have used quality synthetic.
    I check the level often.

    The issue started when it got cold out. For the first ten seconds the car would sound like a diesel and then start to mellow.

    Since I made this post I have done some reading on the internet. It seems the tensioner has been replaced with a model that has a stronger internal spring. This redesign would suggest that the original was defective.

    I am surprised that people would vote that it is not defective, unless they are voting out of love for their Mini instead of having knowledge about their Mini.

    The car is a cooper S, and it has been babied. I like most Mini owners bought it for the appeal. I have been disappointed that the car has not lived up to it's billing as a superior vehicle.

    p.s. Nick, do you think the problem is Mini's recommendation for oil change intervals, or the weak spring in the tensioner?
     
  10. Nathan

    Nathan Founder

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    Moved to 2nd Gen Cooper S area.

    The tensioner is a known issue. Don't know enough about it myself to offer informed info. Others will.
     
  11. I am A Fool

    I am A Fool New Member

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    Thank you Nathan. It is nice to know that it is an issue. I just have to find the right language when I present the issue to customer service.
     
  12. 05r50

    05r50 Well-Known Member

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    Welcome aboard. We are here to help.

    There is a lot of great information on this forum for all types of topics.

    Now to your post. I don't think that you are giving enough credit to MINI owners for knowing about our cars. In reality, you will find that many of us know a good deal about cars and MINIs specifically. That doesn't mean that it is all puppies and bikini babes around here. We know there are problems with these cars and they can be frustrating. But in the long run, when cared for they are great little cars.

    Since we don't know each other I don't how much you already know about the issue you are experiencing so here goes:
    • The engine in a Gen 2 MCS is called a N14 motor
    • This motor is known to have issues with the timing chain, tensioner, or guide rails to fail. However, not all N14 motors have this failure happen.
    • The tensioner did receive a update. There is now a longer tensioner which allows for the chain slack to be taken up and maintain proper tension
    • There is a published TSB, Technical Service Bulletin. SIM110207. Attached. This TSB details what the process is to determine if the tension on the timing chain is within spec.
    • If you are not the original owner and the tensioner has been replaced by MINI prior, there should be a record of that for your VIN.
    • You will get more help from your dealer if you understand that you need them on your side. This is certainly emotional for a lot of owners, but it seems that owners that scream and yell don't get much love from their dealer. They are not the ultimate decider. They get paid for the repair, either by you or by MINI. It is in your best interest to get your dealer on your side working for you to get MINI to cover it or to discount the cost.


    I am not sure if there is a right or wrong answer on this being a defect or not. Many manufacturers have found that after a product is released changes need to be made to it. In my opinion this is one of those. The longer tensioner allows for the slack to be kept in place up to a certain point. Short of replacing the motor with a different motor design what else could they do. This solution allows them to keep these motors on the street. The tensioner itself is a inexpensive part. Screws in like a bolt. They even have a tool to test the chain tension to see if it is in spec. A homeowner doesn't tear down their house because one of the windows leaks cold air and rain comes through it. They fix the window.

    I have not ever seen any numbers on how many N14 motors have actually had this problem. Or how many categorized by under warranty vs. out of warranty. So what percentage is it? To be fair if this problem is a very small percentage of total N14 issues, then it has probably been handled reasonably.

    I assume you are out of warranty at this point. How many miles are on your car? Is it still the original tensioner?

    Good Luck.
     

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  13. I am A Fool

    I am A Fool New Member

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    I don't know if everyone here does know a lot. Three people have voted that it is not a defect.

    However my car had the tensioner replaced before I bought it. This was not revealed to me in the original print out of what was done. Also the memo you are referring to, had an update which said not to use the original tensioner, but its replacement if the chain did rattle. The dealer used the original on an old chain.

    When a manufacturer releases a tech bulletin warning of a problem, then produces a part to fix the problem, then this is an issue. When a reasonable person believes that a product will perform as advertised, and it doesn't because of defect, this is called a breach of implied warranty.

    Most gearheads would understand that a timing chain should last 120,000 miles if the car is serviced properly.

    Mini Corporation should certainly understand that fact. However, sadly, three people here didn't know what they were talking about and voted anyway.

    Thanks for your input.
     
  14. MCS02

    MCS02 Moderator
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    Hi, welcome to MA! I do not want to vote in your poll, this does not mean I am ignorant of Minis.
    As a matter of fact I have turned a wrench for a very long time. Most of the people on this forum have lots of exparance. We are not kids here we are mostly 40 and older.
    You appear to be looking for ammunition to use when you talk to your dealer or MINI USA.
    05r50 did a good job explaining the problem with the N14 engine. If the dealer used the original parts with the old chain then I would print out the service bulletin and take it in to the dealer and see if they will warranty the work.
    Do you do your own work? If so it would be easer to do it yourself.
    Yes a trimming chain should last a long time. This is a bad design that is why they did a redesign.
    I am really confused you seam put off by us but we are trying to help. Your last post appeared very condensing.
    Perhaps you should get to know us before you start calling us ignorant

    We do want to help.
     
  15. I am A Fool

    I am A Fool New Member

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    I can't control how people interpret my posts. But I cannot understand how you would find my last post condescending when I said thank you for your input at the end of it.

    If you are talking about the part of the post, where I said three people voted, who didn't understand the thread. How could anyone, with knowledge of the issue, say that the original tensioner was not a defect?

    Let me explain why I think the failure of the timing chain is on the Manufacturer.

    The tensioner was designed with a light spring and depended on oil flow for hydraulic pressure. Much like a pump up lifter would work. However the manufacturer suggested oil changes every 8,000 miles. Turbo cars consume oil, so that duration was too long a period. The oil would be low and very worn. The manufacturer originally advertised that the N14 timing chain would not need adjustment for the useful life of the motor. The EPA and other organizations suggest that 120,000 miles is the useful life.

    Lastly, the manufacturer was aware that the tensioner was not working well when combined with their service recommendations. They sent out technical bulletins, redesigned the tensioner, but didn't inform the customer to decrease mileage between changes. This would indicate that Mini wished to keep the subject on the down low, and hope that most Minis made it off warranty.

    I find the fact that Mini hid the defect to be beneath contempt. They have built a very loyal customer base, which bought the car for it's prestige and quality, but Mini is letting the base down.

    This causes the Mini to receive a poor quality rating, and causes a huge drop in our Minis value.

    For example, look at the last JD Power Vehicle Dependability Study. Mini is at the very bottom and that kills the value of our cars. Everyone who owns a Mini, should be onto Customer Service, to ask them why they ignore quality control issues. Even if you car isn't one with a defect, because all Minis are tarred with a bad rep.

    2014 Vehicle Dependability Study Press Release | J.D. Power
     
  16. MCS02

    MCS02 Moderator
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    No argument here. I think it was a bad design. A long time ago we had a discussion about the oil chaing interval being to long on a tourbo car. I believe that MINI originally called for 15000 miles between oil changes, one of you gen 2 guys correct me if I am wrong.
    Mini decreased the interval after they had to replace some engines. Not because of timing chains but because of sludge build up.
    I'm not a Gen 2 guy, but the guys that have them like them. They are fun cars and mostly trouble free. I am sorry this has happened to your car and maybe they should have used the upgraded parts when they repaired your car. Then you would not be having this trouble.

    I do not know what part of the country you live in but some of the dealers are very good.

    Good luck and why are you not sleeping at 4am:biggrin5:
     
  17. I am A Fool

    I am A Fool New Member

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    At 4 a.m. I am thinking about either fixing my mini or tossing it.

    The Dealer didn't put the heat plate over the turbo oil lines either, so they are worn.

    The water housing needs changing. The endlinks need to be replaced, and I might as well do all four discs.

    All easy projects, except for the water housing. i.e. Jarvis artificial heart.

    I am told that my local dealer is the worst in the country, because I live in a very affluent community. People don't care, they just throw money and say fix it. Which leaves no time for those who have warranty issues.
     
  18. Metalman

    Metalman Well-Known Member
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    What makes you think the three people that responded didn't know what they were talking about?

    I suggest to you that the 2nd gen engine was use over several model years...

    The manufacturer reserves the right to make changes / improvements to the engine as they are built on the assembly line. It's quite possible that the 3 voters don't have or consider their particular model year exhibiting this issue. So they voted accordingly. They may simply have a later year 2nd gen MINI that benefited from the changes....

    If you review the P/N history for the chain tensioner you will find at least 3 versions were made for the tensioner. At this point do you know what P/N is being used in your engine?
     
  19. cct1

    cct1 Well-Known Member
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    After reading this, i feel so left out. I want my name changed to:

    "A Fool and His Money"
     
  20. Spa2k

    Spa2k Well-Known Member

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    Would someone please crash the site again? I have seen the future of this thread, and it ain't pretty!
     

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