Closed cockpits on open wheeled race cars?

Discussion in 'Motorsports Chat & Race Preparation' started by Steve, Aug 25, 2015.

  1. Steve

    Steve Administrator
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    As I'm sure was expected by most everyone who read the thread about Justin Wilson's death, that thread is slowly turning into a discussion of closed cockpits.

    That's okay, but I'd rather separate discussion of that divisive subject from a thread meant to respectfully inform about Wilson's passing.

    I'd also like to have a running thread on M/A to use for news and discussion about this concept of putting closed cockpits on open wheeled race cars. We all know it will be at least studied more and more as time passes and I, for one, think it's a fascinating subject.

    So, let's see if this goes anywhere.

    It's hard for me to believe but it's already been six years since Felipe Massa was severely injured by a flying suspension spring during qualifying for the Hungarian GP (Jul 2008). After that there was a flurry of study by the FIA and testing of a couple proposed solutions. Discussion (mostly arguing) peaked and then the subject more or less fell off the radar, or so I thought. Since the Pocono incident the FIA's Charlie Whiting said they're still working on it and he's sure some form of implementation is inevitable. They're even getting ready to test a couple more potential solutions: F1 Racing News | Racer.com - Whiting: Protected cockpits will happen

    I know, racing is dangerous. Does that mean they shouldn't be always trying to improve?
     
  2. Steve

    Steve Administrator
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    Videos from the FIA's earlier tests.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-h6GHEEWR_U"]FIA close cockpit tests [paddockbox.com] - YouTube[/ame]

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgHh4V0WYCs"]FIA Institute Roll Hoop "Roll Cage" Crash Test for Formula 1 - YouTube[/ame]
     
  3. Justa Jim

    Justa Jim Well-Known Member
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    The cage would not offer much protection from side impact. The closed one would. Canopies on fighter planes take a lot of pressure and offer protection. That seems like the better bet to me and still allows the car to not look dramatically altered.
     
  4. mrntd

    mrntd Well-Known Member
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    I think the fighter canopy idea is the best. I was involved with the F16 canopy from the quality of manufacturing stand point and those things are tough.

    I've seen a modified version in boat racing where the top of the bubble was open. Unlike the video above it was more than just a wrap around.
     
  5. cct1

    cct1 Well-Known Member
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    Agree with the above, they'll just have to make sure there's a quick release so the driver can get out fast, but as far advanced as car and aircraft technology is, that should be no problem.

    It'd take a ton of testing though, obviously it's going to affect the setup/handling of the entire car.
     
  6. whaap

    whaap New Member

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    Sorry I went off topic on the other forum. Repeating pretty much what I said: By going with an enclosed cockpit you would be solving one problem while, more than likely, creating other problems. The first thought that comes to mind would be an upside down car that was burning. Getting the driver out could be the new problem.
     
  7. Steve

    Steve Administrator
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    No worries, I was sort of itching to go there myself and you weren't even the first to mention it.
    Difficult driver egress is definitely the biggest counter issue, including extrication by others of a driver who is injured or even unconscious. On the other hand, the defensive roll bar idea is both ugly and, much more importantly, blocks quite a bit of the driver's view. It also does nothing to prevent side impact but that wasn't the focus of the study.

    It has to work well or it's not worth doing and it can't cost a mint. Not easy to come up with something that 1) is effective, 2) doesn't cause significant new problems and 3) isn't outrageously expensive to buy and implement. Reminds me of the old business model that says "Here are your options, you can have it good, fast or cheap...pick two. If you want it good but you can't wait, it'll be expensive. If you want it good but also cheap, you'll be waiting a long time...maybe forever. If you want it right away but it also has to be cheap, it probably won't work."

    I'm not surprised no one has come up with a perfect solution yet.

    The other side of this is a lot of people just don't want it.
     
  8. Steve

    Steve Administrator
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    These guys are willing to give it a go.

    Canopy manufacturer open to testing options for Dallara DW12 (racer.com)
     
  9. Alan

    Alan Active Member

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    What needs to be improved is the cars being built so they don't shed so much crap during an impact. Cars used to dent when they hit something, now they explode.

    It means building a beefier car with way less carbon fiber.
     
  10. DneprDave

    DneprDave Well-Known Member
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    How often does an accident like this happen? Is it worth it to change the design of a car for something that is less likely to happen than being struck by lightning?
     
  11. Steve

    Steve Administrator
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    How often? I don't know the raw numbers but it's more often than I consider acceptable, esp. when it seems like a solution shouldn't be that hard to find. And I think that's a big reason why this issue is so polarizing, we all have different thresholds, levels of tolerance.

    According to Trevor Carlin there was another close call the day of Wilson's incident. I didn't even hear about the other, but 1) close calls don't usually make news (plus "close" is relative) and 2) it was in GP3 (I think) and I rarely hear ANY news from the lesser series'.

     
  12. Alan

    Alan Active Member

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    REALLY!

    A guy is DEAD! Why don't you ask around at his funeral?
     
  13. Angib

    Angib New Member

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    Having owned a semi-enclosed motorcycle, the first issue with a canopy that occurs to me is how to deal with it misting up.

    Though it would be interesting to know if air conditioning the driver would actually deliver a driver performance improvement greater than the weight and power needed to air condition the cockpit.
     
  14. cct1

    cct1 Well-Known Member
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    They're designed to do that specifically to release kinetic energy during a crash. Yes, you can tether parts, and the cowl I'm guessing from here on out will be tethered, but that won't completely eliminate the issue. Also, tires come off, etc. Changing the cars so they don't shed parts will make them more dangerous to the occupant. It's a catch-22.

    I'm guessing the canopy can be developed to release even upside down.

    Another added benefit--you're not going to have the wind constantly buffeting around the cockpit, which should help with driver concentration and fatigue.
     
  15. DneprDave

    DneprDave Well-Known Member
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    What, did you know him? I didn't, I've never even heard of the guy. He knew that he was involved in a dangerous sport, in which he could get killed and so did his family. A lot of good people die everyday. I can't get too choked up about it.

    I just wondered if this was a statistically significant kind of event which warranted spending money and changing the rules to prevent it from ever happening again. How many driver's have been killed by flying debris in the last hundred years of motor racing, only one or is it thousands? It is something to consider before spending a lot of money to prevent something that is unlikely to happen again.
     
  16. cct1

    cct1 Well-Known Member
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    What number of deaths do you need for it to be statistically significant?

    Dan Wheldon......Significant changes occurred after that, because everyone recognized though rare, it could/would happen again. It only happened once, but once was enough.

    Kyle Busch didn't even die, but NASCAR pushed for extension of the safer barrier to prevent further injury and death, guess we need to wait for someone to actually expire next time.

    Dale Earnhardt, and the mandatory HANS type device and halo seats--not a ton of deaths from that type of accident, but woukd anyone seriously argue those changes were bad?

    It's not just deaths, but racers get concussions and non-threatening life injuries. Protecting the head, if it's feasable, is a no-brainer, pun intended. Yes, racing is and always will be risky, but that's not an excuse to try and improve safety. Being proactive also reduces the clamor over prohibiting racing or canceling a series, lie in the days when people were calling for the end of F1 due to all the deaths.
     
  17. GokartPilot

    GokartPilot Well-Known Member

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    Totally agree. Don't get me wrong, I have the deepest sympathy for the Justin Wilson's family and his friends but he knew the dangers. Its like joining the military and thinking and you wont go any where people want to kill you, and yes there are quite a few them out there. I'd take a fraction of what any of those drivers make to do something like that for a living.
    But to answer your question a top fuel driver came to mind, had to do a little research but his name was Darrell Russell, 2004, totally a freak thing, just like this.
    I did read an article earlier today where covered canopies were being discussed again, but hey that could have been for the press.

    FIA set to carry out closed cockpit tests | Formula 1 news | Motorsport.com
     
  18. MCS02

    MCS02 Moderator
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    No offence to Dale Earnhardt and please don't get me wrong his death was terrible. But the HANS device was a proven safety device and he faught against it.
     
  19. DneprDave

    DneprDave Well-Known Member
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    I couldn't say, certainly not just one or two in a hundred years.
     
  20. Steve

    Steve Administrator
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