Suspension Brakes Walking the line... street & HPDE car build

Discussion in 'Tuning and Performance' started by Bster13, Jan 5, 2014.

  1. Bster13

    Bster13 New Member

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    #1 Bster13, Jan 5, 2014
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    I pick up my new to me 2007 R56 w/ 86,666 miles on it, on Saturday. This will be my secondary car:

    [​IMG]
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    The pictures do this car justice and a favor. I'll be addressing the paint before the Spring.

    Here are the goods:

    - Factory LSD
    - NO sunroof
    - New engine from MINI w/ 2yr warranty
    - New clutch from MINI w/ 2yr warranty
    - 2 x new strut mounts and alignment
    - Passed MINI's inspection otherwise and drives just fine.

    Here is what I want to do with the car:

    - Tear up backroads w/ other MINIs in the area mostly.
    - 2 x trips to the Smoky Mountains from CT each year (so using a bit of highway)
    - Scenic drives with the wife, who enjoys going fast, but likes to keep the fillings in her mouth.
    - 2 to 3 HPDEs per year on Max Performance summer tires (Rivals, Star Spec IIs, RE-11A, etc.)
    - I don't care about being slammed, but don't want my rim/tire combo to look weird either. I guess drop it as little as possible to achieve max handling and hope that means I can still get over a speed bump.
    - I can't help but feel people producing lowering springs just drop the car "a bit" vs. figuring out optimal ride height. Maybe I'm full of it. But I want to know the optimal geometry.
    - I want the car to be planted. I had an EVO IX w/ HD Bilstein, Swift springs, and rear sway bar that was planted in the corners. So looking for neutral handling, perhaps a touch of oversteer. Heck I want my MINI to out handle my EVO. :)
    - Upgrade power after handling/brakes.

    Brakes:
    -With the possibility of running 15in rims, I'd run the STREET or TRACK kit from:
    MINI 07-13 - Kits
    -Leave rear caliper alone and upgrade rear pad.

    Suspension...this where I am torn:
    Option 1...
    IE Fixed Camber Plates
    Swift Springs (not sure if I need custom straight rate, regular Swifts, or Swift Spec R)
    Koni Yellows
    H-Sport Competition 25.5mm rear sway bar (I enjoy the low weight, not sure what setting to achieve desired handling)
    Adjustable end links
    Adjustable rear control arms

    Options 2...
    BC Coilovers w/ integrated camber plates & Swift Springs (BC Racing Coilovers BR Plus Swift Spring Upgrade Mini Cooper R56 2007-2012)
    H-Sport Competition 25.5mm rear sway bar (not sure what setting to achieve desired handling)
    Adjustable end links
    remote dampening adjusters for rear
    Adjustable rear control arms
    Corner weight the car

    - Are the IE fixed camber plates less noisy and more "cushioned" than the integrated ones on the BC Coilovers? I also read they raise the car 1/8-1/4in, bad, no?
    - I don't want to spend for TSW K2 coilovers and then camber plates. Am I wasting $ on the BC/Swift combo? If I run 15in rims will that necessitate coilovers to lower the car for aesthetics?
    - For my mostly street w/ a touch of HPDE, what would seem right for alignment... Camber: 1.8-2F / somewhere between 1-1.5R ? A little toe F, 0 toe R?

    Tires/Rims:
    - 205/50/R15 ... amazing tire selection. Cheaper rims/tires.
    - 15x7 949Racing or RFP1 rims.
    - This will increase my highway RPD by 5% and lose some MPG
    - This will improve acceleration/stopping and reduce weight.
    - Stock R56 17in tire has 3.6in sidewall. 205/50 has 4in sidewall. With the larger sidewall trade the responsiveness for all out grip? :(
    - I am unsure what offset I would need with my suspension wants listed above.
    - I am unsure if running 205/50/R15s will necessitate a very low car that catches everything underneath on the streets.
    - Are 15s not as optimal for performance as I think? (too squishy sidewall? Weird suspension geometry?)

    I guess I finally have some funds and I want to do it "right," not "pretty good." I never race on the street but can't help but wanting a little better setup car than the next guy is all.

    Many thanks for the collective knowledge here. I've already spent a good deal of my weekend reading. :p
     
  2. cct1

    cct1 Well-Known Member
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    #2 cct1, Jan 5, 2014
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2014
    Brakes:get the best set you can that fits the fifteens that you can afford. Stainless lines are a must long-term. Stock is ok to start with. The only thing I'd do for the rears is the pads, as you mentioned, and change the bushings, which takes like 5 minutes, unless the R56 rears have done away with the crappy R53 style rear bushings, not sure on that someone else can chime in.

    I have 19 solid sway bar on full stiff, if I had it to do over again I'd do a 22 hollow, but it's not a big issue. 25 is pretty aggressive, IMHO people tend to go overboard on sway bars, but that's my opinion--25 (again this is just my opinion, others will disagree) would probably better for autox, 22 hollow, great for the track, especially if you're just starting. I have an R53, and maybe the 25 is better for the R56, again someone with an R56 can chime in here.

    Love swift springs, not a huge fan of BC, you might want to go to a dedicated suspension thread. I have KW V2s that I really like, but I'm swapping to JRZ's this year.


    You do not want fixed camber plates. You won't be able to get enough camber from them, and they can be quite a bit off from side to side. Whatever you choose for camber plates, get good adjustable ones.

    The 949's are good, I run 15x9 up front, 15x8 in rear. 15x7 is fine, it won't rub, you may get a little rubbing with 15x8s and you will need spacers. I prefer 225x45x15 to 205x50 15's, they handle better, but 205's are good too--just not as good.

    I think the offset on the 949's are +38 but I'd have to double check on that.

    I'd seriously consider a different rim for street and track. You'll be able to use a stickier tire for the track; using street tires on the track is a great way to start, but you'll want to move up quick, and track tires don't last long on the street. You can run 17's or 16's on the street, and not have to worry about being too low on the 15's--and you will be low on 15's.

    It's ok to start with the street tire setup, but be aware that you if you get hooked into this, 2-3 HPDE's a year won't be enough, and it's easier to do it right, especially with regard to the suspension, the first time then constantly revising it--ask me how I know...

    And that's a nice looking car, nice job.
     
  3. Dave.0

    Dave.0 Helix & RMW Powered
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    ^^^ great advice
     
  4. Bster13

    Bster13 New Member

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    Yes, definitely SS lines, I want to say the TCE packages come with them, but I will check and I'll also check on the bushings for the R56 brakes.

    Yeah still sorting out the sway bar thing, touchy subject, haha. I mentioned in my original post I wanted to feel planted, but the hollow 25 sure is light. Maybe the 22 hollow is a nice compromise.

    I find the Swift springs have a good reputation on most website for most cars. I just can't figure out what is the optimal ride height for the MINI for the street with a little track mixed in and I'm not convinced spring makers are shooting for handling over looks/drop. I know the BC coilovers are not high end but they would give me some adjustability in ride height if I ever were to find the magical numbers I'm after plus corner weighting. Haha.


    From what I've read the IE fixed camber plates are robust and you can get close to -2 camber up front, which would be pretty good for a street car when considering handling and wear, right? Also I believe the R56 has an eccentric bolt that can find tune the camber L/R. I guess it has to be a compromise. I'll be on the street most, track least. Sure I'd want more camber on the track but I won't be getting an alignment prior to every trackday.

    Do you run these rims/tires on the street or only AutoX or HPDE? Or double duty?

    I guess if this car leads me to more trackdays I'll double up on rims, but for now it is a mostly street driven car so I guess I'll have to suffer on the track, plus I hear it's not good to move to R-comps too soon, else it may cover some mistakes.

    How low is low with the 15s? Are we talking the lowest point of the car being 5in off the ground once aftermarket suspension is setup? That will certainly play a part in the PIA factor with a 15in tire that is only ~23in in diameter + the car will be lowered a bit by suspension vs. stock ride height and 24.3 diameter stock tire. :eek:

    Yeah I hear you. I did it with street bikes when I should've gone for a track bike in the first place. :p But I'm trying to involve my wife in a hobby here and participate in the good social MINI scene in my area as well and just smell the roses a bit. :)
     
  5. cct1

    cct1 Well-Known Member
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    The IE fixed plates are a short term solution to what's going to be a long term deal for you. Spend the extra dough on the adjustables. You'll find a TON of people going from fixed IE's to a quality adjustable. You won't find a single person on here who has gone from a decent adjustable to fixed IE's. You will end up wanting to play with camber to find what works best for you, its different for everyone.

    I have two sets of rims, the 15's for track, 16's for street. I am low on the fifteens, as in I have to hit inclines diagonally type of low, but I also have a splitter on the the front. With 16's, I'm ok. What you might want to do is start on 17's with ultra performance summer tires for street and track, and buy a set of 15's when you're ready for R-comps (and yes I'd hold off on R-comps until you have some seat time--they do hide mistakes, and they don't have as much feedback before they break loose.). The 949s aren't that expensive; you can get them used from the Miata crowd cheap. 15's can't be beat for the track, and there are awesome and relative cheap very good R-comps in that size.
     
  6. Dave.0

    Dave.0 Helix & RMW Powered
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    If you want good brakes and only have to buy the whole setup once get the RMW / Brakeman set up and skip over the TCE / Wilwood kits.

    CCT1 can tell you all about brakes as I think he has tested every brake package available.

    I know others that have had the Bilsteins with Swift springs and loved them and I have custom KW V'2 with Swifts and like them the best as I have had a few setups.
     
  7. Bster13

    Bster13 New Member

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    I guess I'm really trying t oget away with 205/50/R15s on the street and use them occasionally for HPDEs w/ max street tires. I fully realize R-comps and 2 sets of rims would be better, but it's not in the cards right now. How low will a set of 205/50/R15s make my car with associated suspension goodies? Are 15s on the street only for looks and car shows? Will I be scraping everything in town?

    I never heard of the brakeman stuff, great tip. But it looks like I'd only need to go there if I were running R-comps. I just don't see myself turning this car into a track wh_re. :p

    Knowing this, still no-go for the IE fixed plates, eh?


     
  8. Bster13

    Bster13 New Member

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    Which Bilsteins did folks rock? HDs? Sport?

    I read up here:
    Autocross to Win (DGs Autocross Secrets) - Buying Shocks

    Not sure if Koni Yellows or Bilsteins would be better...I guess you are all saying to run from the BC Coilovers w/ Swift springs?

    I guess I'm worried about not being able to adjust ride height, especially if it is ok to run 15s on the street. Also corner weighting would be beneficial.

    I have read
     
  9. cct1

    cct1 Well-Known Member
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    #9 cct1, Jan 5, 2014
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2014
    Fixed plates: Just say no, even for what you're doing. Get Vorschlag's and be done with it forever.

    Bilstein's are much better than the Koni's, PSS9's or 10's.

    I can run 15's on the street with GREAT care. It's not ideal for a lowered car on 15's though.
    But my car is track first, street second. If you're not lowered, it's fine.

    The Brakeman kit is what I run, and you're right, you don't need it until you get R-Comps.
    I have the utmost respect for Todd (TCE), but the truth is a 15 inch Wilwood kit is really going to be a lateral move from the stock kit, unless you go with wider rotors. The Wilwood kits flex, and you're going to get pad taper. I'd start with stock, get some air to those with ducts, and take it from there. If you want one of the TCE kits, you're going to have to go to a bigger diameter rotor, and bigger diameter rim, for it to be significantly better than stock.
    People crack me up on brakes, they'll put in stainless steel lines, a more aggressive pad, and a new BBK and swear they're stopping distances are dramatically different on street tires. They aren't, but initial bite and change in pedal feel makes it seem that way. Your braking is only as good as your tires. What these kits do is handle heat better. If you're just starting out, I'd go with new rotors, a decent track pad, get a few events in, then start thinking about brakes.

    Once you go to R-comps, then it's time to think better brakes. The Brakeman kit is the only one that has held up and performed fantastic that I can fit under 15's running R-comps. It doesn't screw up brake bias, which some of the kits do, and I can go in deeper with no fade compared to the other kits I ran. The benefit of the 15's is just too good for me to go to a larger diameter rotor. They still need brake ducts.



    It's all about compromises, and what's more important to you, and what your goals are. I'd start slow with the mods until you figure out how much you're going to do with this, and how fast you want to run. Some people are great with not much more than stock and have a blast with that. Other people want to pass M3's (not so hard on a short track, but quite a bit more challenging on a long track with lengthy straights without some serious mods), and that takes a bit more work. Me, I'm hyper-competitive, and every time I think I'm satisfied, I get passed by something that if I was just a little bit faster I could take, and then I'm off working on my driving, trying to get better, and modding some more. I didn't start out that way, in fact just the opposite, but I got hooked into it. That's why for things like camber plates, just do it right the first time, it'll be cheaper in the long run, and even if you don't go crazy with it, they're not that much more expensive than fixed plates, when you consider how much you're going to be spending on disposables like pads, tires, brake fluid and the general wearing out of part from track use.

    Truth is it's what you want it to be. If you keep the MINI relatively stock and drive it well, you will earn much more respect than someone driving a Stingray poorly, even though they're passing you. But any mod you're going to do, do it right the first time, or stay stock until you're sure you want to take it up a notch, then do it right. Buy good stuff off the bat, it's more expensive up front, but it saves you a ton of money in the long run. I wish I could do it all over again, I could have saved a bunch of money, and had the car better quicker.
     
  10. minimark

    minimark Well-Known Member

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    Much good advice here. /\
     
  11. Bster13

    Bster13 New Member

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    I ~want~ to run 15s on the street, but I'd have to know how much ground clearance folks have with 205/50/15s or 225/45/15s. Define "great car." :p
     
  12. Bster13

    Bster13 New Member

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    I've been reading tidbits about the R56 and how dropping the car is not optimal, or at least in this thread:
    http://www.motoringalliance.com/forums/suspension/5222-gauging-interest-functional-lowering-springs-r53-r56-possibly-coilovers.html#axzz2pgGHmaYS

    Is this true? If that is the case, then stock ride height + 205/50/R15s would look kind of weird.

    I don't know enough about coilovers, but if I were to go for coilovers instead, would I be able to adjust the ride height and maintain suspension travel (thus optimal) or is there more to it like roll center?
     
  13. cct1

    cct1 Well-Known Member
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    Yes, you will be able to adjust ride height and maintain suspension travel. Adjusting roll center unfortunately, at least on the R53, requires a bit of modification, and most people leave it.
     
  14. Bster13

    Bster13 New Member

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    Ok, so if my finding about suspension travel on the R56 are correct, then I really need to preserve it and coilovers are the way to go over lowering springs and struts.
     
  15. Bster13

    Bster13 New Member

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    As for Roll Center, I just don't want to ruin it is all. I'm unsure what the optimal ride height is with the R56. But it looks like coilovers is where it is at for me.
     
  16. cct1

    cct1 Well-Known Member
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    Coilovers and good springs are the answer. You can adjust from there. Lowering the MINI helps, but you don't want to go too low and bottom the suspension out, not to mention put a ton of strain on the CV joints. It's a bunch of variables--spring stiffness, ride height, and, if you're coilovers are adjustable, damper settings, camber, toe, etc. And what works best for one won't necessarily be the best for another, everyone drives differently.

    It's better to start less aggressive, and change one thing at a time, than trying to hit a homerun and make multiple changes to the suspension components. If you try too much at once, it gets hard to figure out what is doing what--at least it was for me.
     
  17. Bster13

    Bster13 New Member

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    I can see your point but unless I purchase a DIY alignment kit, I'd rather avoid the bulk of that expense.

    Lowering too much = ground clearance issues & stressing CV joints (good point).

    But lowering ride height = lower center of gravity.

    I'm unsure how to reduce the roll couple of the R56 an stay within safe limits:
    Dealing With Body Roll | Speed Direct

    I'll read some more. :)
     
  18. BThayer23

    BThayer23 Well-Known Member

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    One point on brakes...

    I like Wilwoods as they're common - it makes repairs and parts easy to find. If you're deciding between the street and track setups, piston choice makes a difference. It's no big deal to strip the calipers yearly and refresh the seals on a track car that spends a lot of time on jack stands, but it's a pain in the butt if it's mostly a driver.

    No boots = yearly or biennial rebuilds.
    Boots = rebuild after you fry the boots during a track day (not hard to do)

    Otherwise, buy the biggest brakes you can find. It's stressful having to limp brakes around the track and worry whether or not you'll stop on a 120mph straightaway.
     
  19. Bster13

    Bster13 New Member

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    I emailed TCE about pad taper, and he said that yes it was an issue, but easily remedied by flipping the pads every so often. Does that sound reasonable? Because the TCE 11.75in rotor kit seems like the only one that would fit under a 15in rim.

    As for grabbing the biggest rotors you can find, I totally understand about brake fade, been there, done that while tracking motorcycles on my SV650 until I grafted a GSXR front end on it. :) But... there is the law of diminishing returns. Would I cook a 11.74in rotor? A 12.2? A 13? I dunno, and of course as I increase the rotor size, up goes the weight of the bigger rims and tires. :(

    I love the tires selection of the 205/50/15, it cannot be beat IMO. What tire/rim combo do most track nuts run? (and that of course would dictate rotor size)
     
  20. Ryephile

    Ryephile New Member

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    Between 1.0" and 1.5" lower than stock is the sweet spot for the suspension. Any lower and you induce understeer from having the front roll center too low.

    The KW Variant 2's are the hot-ticket; their valving is among KW's best regardless of price. Do those along with some Powergrid drop-links, max out the factory front camber and minimize factory rear camber and you should be very close to optimum.

    Oh, congrats on the car by the way. Enjoy! :biggrin5:
     

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