ATI Super Damper

Discussion in 'Engine & Drivetrain' started by k-huevo, Aug 8, 2009.

Tags:
  1. k-huevo

    k-huevo Club Coordinator

    May 6, 2009
    683
    159
    0
    Pipe Creek, Texas
    Ratings:
    +159 / 0 / -0
    Werkin Mini provides a crankshaft vibration damper alternative for the modified MINI, the ATI Super Damper for $425. ATI - Super Dampers® for Mini Cooper Engines
    [​IMG]

    Some good information is supplied here Engine Damper - Circle Track Magazine for the ATI Super Damper and the TCI Rattler. Werkin Mini will be offering the Rattler soon also; all testing has been done and a pre-production MINI Rattler unit completed, production for retail is expected in the next two months. TCI - BALANCERS: The Rattler

    The ATI Super Damper is 1% larger than stock size, but 2lb 3oz lighter. The equation for determining what a 1% increase in crankshaft pulley diameter would have on a supercharger pulley's relative reduction size is complicated, and the details needed for accuracy are not available to me. A short simple calculation would turn the JCW 11.45% into a 12.9% reduced pulley. The MINI ATI Super Damper is available in larger sizes up to + 6% at extra cost.

    Our dual mass flywheel with its [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elastomer"]elastomer[/ame] core has a role in quelling crankshaft vibrations, without the dual mass FW, the cylinder firing pulses only have the front wheels to provide damping. Any one with a lightweight flywheel is familiar with the un-dampened “rattle†with the clutch disengaged. In my opinion there is an increased need for a crankshaft vibration damper when the dual mass flywheel and clutch is swapped for an aftermarket lightweight.

    Although the ATI Super Damper is elastomer based like the late model OEM, the similarity ends there. The Super Damper is designed to dampen at all frequencies unlike the narrow range of the OEM. It is also designed with the modified MINI in mind, the OE damper was not intended for high rpm, higher boost levels, or lead footed enthusiasts.

    I’ve replaced four failed early model MCS crankshaft vibration dampers and have read about quite a few others. In my experience it’s not if the early model damper will fail but when. A new OEM vibration damper will cost a little less than the ATI Super Damper from Werkin Mini, however the OEM won’t provide the wide range of effectiveness. There is plenty of debate about whether a vibration damper can be considered a performance modification, and there are examples of high HP cars gaining a few extra with the ATI Super Damper, all debaters agree a poorly (unbalanced) dampened motor will loose HP.
     
  2. Mike

    Mike New Member

    May 4, 2009
    403
    3
    0
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0
    I'd love to know what effect either of these have on that annoying gearbox rattle. I'll pay attention to any before-after comparisons.
     
  3. not-so-rednwhitecooper

    Aug 5, 2009
    40
    0
    0
    mechanic
    Chardon, Ohio
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    I'll take one Rattler please.
     
  4. Tüls

    Tüls New Member

    Apr 3, 2009
    438
    12
    0
    The sky
    Ratings:
    +12 / 0 / -0
    Wow that could be pretty sweet...
     
  5. ScottinBend

    ScottinBend Space Cowboy
    Supporting Member

    May 4, 2009
    8,767
    2,547
    113
    Bend, OR USA
    Ratings:
    +2,678 / 1 / -0
  6. Doggybags

    Doggybags New Member

    May 9, 2009
    152
    5
    0
    Ratings:
    +5 / 0 / -0
    Any specific reason why its 1% larger in diameter and not OEM size?
     
  7. not-so-rednwhitecooper

    Aug 5, 2009
    40
    0
    0
    mechanic
    Chardon, Ohio
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    More booooooooooost! lol
     
  8. miniconcarne

    miniconcarne New Member

    May 5, 2009
    246
    38
    0
    Machinist
    Home
    Ratings:
    +38 / 0 / -0
    Not a question of if they fail but when.


    May need to look into these.
     
  9. Nitrominis

    Nitrominis Banned

    May 9, 2009
    1,217
    61
    0
    Doing nothing
    Santa Cruz, CA
    Ratings:
    +61 / 0 / -0
    #9 Nitrominis, Aug 9, 2009
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2009
    **
     
  10. k-huevo

    k-huevo Club Coordinator

    May 6, 2009
    683
    159
    0
    Pipe Creek, Texas
    Ratings:
    +159 / 0 / -0
    My point about the rattle experienced by aftermarket clutch & lightened flywheels owners was mainly to illustrate firing/compression pulses and how much more detectible they are without a dual mass flywheel. I hope that example didn’t mislead any readers into thinking claims were being made as to a damper’s effectiveness in reducing this “noise†in an audible sense.

    Economies of scale, the majority of 4 cylinder imports have a 5.5-inch (or close) diameter crankshaft pulley; the MINI is ~ 5.452 inch.
     
  11. Mike

    Mike New Member

    May 4, 2009
    403
    3
    0
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0
    I was hoping it would help the gearbox noise issue, that's all. No intention to mislead people.

    As for the diameter explanation, that makes a ton of sense.
     
  12. mini_racer

    mini_racer Well-Known Member

    May 4, 2009
    1,046
    57
    48
    Engr Manager
    Austin, TX
    Ratings:
    +57 / 0 / -0
    This seems to be a nice replacement unit.
    1. Is Werkin MINI recommending the Super Damper or the Rattler, seems like two different products. Maybe the Rattler is better for a sustained high revving car?

    2. The 3lbs, 2oz lighter, I would guess that is for the early first gen cars ?? I believe the face lift first gens utilize a revised damper that is ~5.5lbs lighter than the early cars. So, that would put this at about ~2.4lbs heavier than the face lift damper. Do I understand this properly?

    3. Do we have any experience with these dampers? Has Werkin MINI put these on a few cars yet? What are the impressions? Is it nothing that can actually be felt, or does it make a difference that is noticeable? Maybe just on some cars with issues?
     
  13. Pharaoh

    Pharaoh New Member

    Jul 29, 2009
    8
    0
    1
    Ponca City, OK
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    The link for the Super Damper shows it is 3.60 lbs.
     
  14. k-huevo

    k-huevo Club Coordinator

    May 6, 2009
    683
    159
    0
    Pipe Creek, Texas
    Ratings:
    +159 / 0 / -0
    Each of these options has their strong points, but since the TCI Rattler has not gone into production for the MINI, and it has no price point yet, the ATI Super Damper gets my recommendation by default. Although each product has a different approach to the same end, they both work over a wide range of rpm, at a later date it will be a matter of choice, and my goal is to allow choices.

    The late model OEM damper weighs 5lb 13oz, and as Pharaoh pointed out the ATI Super Damper weighs less.

    The Super Damper has only recently been available for the MINI; I hope to be able to provide a first hand report very soon. The Super Damper has been the overwhelming choice for many race teams, road, NASCAR, circle track, drag race, and a component of top finishers in many Engine Masters Challenges for years, plus I have endorsements from the local Hot Rod community, so it’s just a new application for the MINI.
     
  15. Nitrominis

    Nitrominis Banned

    May 9, 2009
    1,217
    61
    0
    Doing nothing
    Santa Cruz, CA
    Ratings:
    +61 / 0 / -0
    #15 Nitrominis, Aug 9, 2009
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2009
    **
     
  16. mini_racer

    mini_racer Well-Known Member

    May 4, 2009
    1,046
    57
    48
    Engr Manager
    Austin, TX
    Ratings:
    +57 / 0 / -0
    #16 mini_racer, Aug 9, 2009
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2009
    Thanks for the quick reply.
    So, on those choices, obviously there is only one today, but that will change.
    - What is the expected price point of the Rattler?
    - When/what application would indicate a selection of the Rattler over the Super Damper or vice versa?
    - Is it expected that the Rattler will weigh the same as the Super Damper?

    As far as the weight, I realize it is not huge deal. If you really want to save significant weight, you could find many more pounds to shave from the flywheel, than here at the damper.

    Looking forward to your report after you get a few installed. Totally understand that this is ONLY new for the MINI, not a brand new and untested design, generally speaking.

    It is a bit pricey, but seems to be a top notch product.
     
  17. Nitrominis

    Nitrominis Banned

    May 9, 2009
    1,217
    61
    0
    Doing nothing
    Santa Cruz, CA
    Ratings:
    +61 / 0 / -0
    #17 Nitrominis, Aug 9, 2009
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2009
    **
     
  18. Pharaoh

    Pharaoh New Member

    Jul 29, 2009
    8
    0
    1
    Ponca City, OK
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    When the choices are
    ATI Super Damper crank pulley @ 3.6lbs & $425
    vs
    Lightweight nonharmonic balanced crank pulley @ <1lb & $160
    I'm sure of the choice I would make & would be worth the extra money.
    I never pulled the trigger on lighter crank pulley as I really not want to "test" it myself.
    I wanted to get a newer OEM pulley for my 2002 but I like this option better. I'm just not sure I would need the Laser etched 360 timing marks.
     
  19. k-huevo

    k-huevo Club Coordinator

    May 6, 2009
    683
    159
    0
    Pipe Creek, Texas
    Ratings:
    +159 / 0 / -0
    #19 k-huevo, Aug 9, 2009
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2009
    I don't have a price or weight guess at this time, not even a hint has been shared.

    The only objective data I have for comparison is this chart on ATI’s web site.
    [​IMG]

    From that chart it would appear the ATI Super Damper is more effective at reducing torsional vibration at higher rpm than a pendulum type absorber like the TCI Rattler, and the Rattler slightly better between 4 & 5k rpm. Looking at the positive attributes of the Rattler, the Rattler is zero balanced, this means if you balanced the crankshaft for the reciprocating mass of the rods, pistons, wrist pins, and rings, the rattler could be added later and not affect the crank's balance. The Rattler is not affected by time & temperature, no need for a rebuild later. The Rattler targets the cause of torsional vibration, the Super Damper targets the torsional vibration’s effect plus additional vibration dynamics. The Rattler is way trick from a technology standpoint.:cool: Crankshaft construction, cast or forged can help tailor the decision if we were to split hairs, but both of these products can do well with either type.

    In the end it will be a decision you as the buyer make as to which one appeals to your sensibilities; they’re both that good.:yesnod:
     
  20. Nitrominis

    Nitrominis Banned

    May 9, 2009
    1,217
    61
    0
    Doing nothing
    Santa Cruz, CA
    Ratings:
    +61 / 0 / -0

    :Thumbsup:
     

Share This Page