MINI gets no love at Road America...

Discussion in 'Track Days & HPDE's' started by cct1, Nov 2, 2010.

  1. cct1

    cct1 Well-Known Member
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    #1 cct1, Nov 2, 2010
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2010
    And, coincidentally, this guy caught one of the most hair raising things that I've ever experienced on the track. This falls in the realm of esoteric if you haven't ever been to Road America; it'll look like no big deal, so you may not want to waste your time if you've never been there. If you have, you'll understand why my sphincter is still puckered.

    A friend gave me a heads up that this guy running in our group posted a video of one of our sessions at Road America.

    First, the no love part: the driver was driving a GTI. If you watch part of the video, you'll see he has no problem with posting fast cars catching him--vipers and such. If you skip to the 6:50 mark (pretty boring before then), you'll see a blue corvette passing him on the front straight. Then it fades to black, and picks up a little later, just before turn five, just after I had passed him and a Carrera (which also passed him). You can see us both (that's my dark silver MCS two cars ahead of him going into the turn) just in front of him at turn five if you follow the video.

    As for the incident that is still causing me significant sphincteric dysfunction, all is well going into turn 6; I'm pulling away from both the GTI and Carrera, and I see two slower cars in the distance (one was an older Ferrari or something, the other either a 335i or 135i, there were one of each on the track, not sure which one it was at this point). Through 7 and 8, to the carousel (see that viper come out of nowhere into 8? That was one fast car.), where I closed on the first car quicker than I anticipated, and had to lift big time in the carousel. I figured I'd ease up, give him a little distance, then pick up some momentum just before and through the kink, and pass him just after the kink. The kink is a no passing zone--automatic black flag, and a potentially done for the day type infraction; for those who haven't been to Road America, if you lift or brake in the kink, you spin, simple as that. Many places enforce a speed limit in the kink, or bypass it altogether with a bend.

    So I come out of the carousel, back on throttle, picking up speed to carry it through the kink and make a nice clean pass with momentum (we all know how fun it is to try and pass a car with more HP on a straightaway if we haven't carried speed through the turn), and this guy lifts BIG TIME right before the kink, and points me by just in front of the kink, at about the 7:55 mark on the video!! I'm carrying too much speed to slow down and stay behind him without hitting him, so I have to take an inside line to pass him--essentially screwing up my line through the kink, carrying a fair amount of speed, and I can't lift or brake. I track out as far to the left as I'd ever, ever want to and luckily don't spin or go off, where those walls are all so close.

    To add insult to injury, look how fast that damned viper closes me down after I get through, and I'm doing 125+ at the end of the backstretch there...

    No black flag though. I'm sure the corner worker at the kink was too surprised to throw it, and I really couldn't have done anything differently. Got lucky as all hell though.

    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DamijUYUQs8]YouTube - Road America 2010 with MVP Track Time 10/16/10[/ame]
     
  2. Crashton

    Crashton Club Coordinator

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    I'm glad you escaped unscathed. Yikes!!! My guess is the corner worker was experienced & knew what was happening. Better a pass in a verboten zone than a crashed car.

    You learned a very good lesson, that being there are all kinds of skill levels on the track. Beware of those who are not as skilled. Their mistakes can bite you big time.

    Thanks for sharing your tale. It is good to be reminded of such things lest we forget.
     
  3. ScottinBend

    ScottinBend Space Cowboy
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    This is what I see, let me know if I am wrong.........

    It appears that as you exit the carousel you are in the middle to right (inside for the kink) side of the track. As we can't see what the 'Vette does as it is blocked by another car, is it possible he thought you wanted by and thus give you the wave by? If you had stayed to the outside (left) out of the carousel would you not have been directly behind him and not given him the wrong impression?
     
  4. Minidave

    Minidave Well-Known Member
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    What a fantastic track, I've been there several times and it's still on my bucket list to drive that track someday. Guess I better hurry up, while I can still drive!

    Anyone who's run many track events has gotten stuck behind someone who just won't let you by, or waves you by in the wrong place, and it's definitely a pucker moment, but then that just prepares you better for the wild things that can happen in a race. As long as it doesn't end in tears, it's all good.....:Thumbsup:
     
  5. BThayer23

    BThayer23 Well-Known Member

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    How ironic that a GTI driver refuses to acknowledge being passed by a MINI. He'll be a 'vette driver soon enough. :devil:
     
  6. minimark

    minimark Well-Known Member

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    You'd think they'd be used to it by now...lol
     
  7. cct1

    cct1 Well-Known Member
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    #7 cct1, Nov 3, 2010
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2010
    It's hard to see but when I exited the carousel, I wasn't all the way to the left--I wasn't carrying as much speed as usual, as I had to ease up in the carousel. Usually I track out to where that black patch is, and just brush the curbing, but I wasn't carrying enough speed. The apex is toward the end of the colored rumble strips, and I hit that full throttle, but he eased up here--this isn't a place where anyone eases up--he acclerates just a little, then he eases up again as we get to the cart path. So I tucked into the right, just inside the black patch; despite going about 10mph slower than I usually go through the carousel, I felt I was closing too quickly, and didn't want to be directly behind him--not sure what he was going to do after the carousel (another spot where people usually are throttle steering rather than lifting). I went through the carousel so much slower than usual, so it wasn't a big deal pinching the track out, and got back on the throttle, thinking we're back to normal, hoping to get back to the left coming into a no passing area to set the kink, but he eases up again--now I'm in no mans land--too late to brake, and off line so not a great place to acclerate.

    This is a no pass area, I was trying to set things up for a pass after the kink. Normally you go through that area and worry about any passing afterwards--I've never had anyone slow down like that before, before the most dangerous part of the track--he obviously knew I was behind him, and was trying to be courteous, but I thought we were on the same page, and as much as he lifted, I had no choice but to pass in a spot I'd never consider passing. I never got up on his bumper, I wasn't in any hurry to get around him; I'd eased up earlier, waiting for a safe spot to pass, so I just didn't anticipate that happening in that spot. I really don't like to get people squirrelly--lesson learned, next time I'll back off and and take that whole segment slower rather than anticipate the people in front of me taking it as they would normally.
     
  8. cct1

    cct1 Well-Known Member
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    #8 cct1, Nov 3, 2010
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2010
    The GTI driver was actually a pretty cool guy--he always let me by with no problems. I guess he just didn't want it documented.

    The guy in the kink that I passed illegally was cool too, but I have no problem waiting to pass, and I try not to ride peoples bumpers--he was just trying to be courteous, but when he braked and lifted to a slow speed just before the kink I saw my life flash... (It was kind of like one of those situations when you're at a stop light--light goes green--the person in front hits the gas pedal, you do the same, then they suddenly hit the brake). But like I said, lesson learned, if I had it to do over, I'd just give up that entire segment of the track from the beginning of the carousel to the end of the kink, and stay farther back than I did (although I thought I had backed off enough. Guess not).

    One other thing--I had passed him a few times before, including after the kink--I'd followed him through the carousel before, and it was all good. The only difference this time was the amount of traffic coming up from behind.
     
  9. minimark

    minimark Well-Known Member

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    Seen it before and sounds like with all the traffic coming up on him, he was watching the mirrors, worrying a bit too much about what you guys were doing and then lost for just a second where he was on the track. Thus the sudden slow down... 2 cents
     
  10. BThayer23

    BThayer23 Well-Known Member

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    BTW, what'd you think of MVP? You can PM if you'd prefer.
     
  11. cct1

    cct1 Well-Known Member
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    I really like MVP, but it's a more aggressive group. I won't run advanced there because the cars in advanced are just plain stupid fast. MVP's intermediate group usually is pretty good--still some very fast cars, but not as many pure race cars (although there were a few at RA--a race prepped M3, that viper, some modded vettes, a few lotuses, and even a Caterham. The Caterham was slow though, I passed him several times. Seems to always be a fair number of lotuses with MVP

    It's a different group from say a BMWCCA--it's a little more aggressive. In the intermediate group, most people are very cool, drive well, and are courteous--if Mark has a problem with someone, he won't hesitate to permanently ban them. So in the intermediate and advanced, it's a pretty experienced group (many of the intermediates would be in advanced at a BMWCCA, but HP is part of the criteria, and they don't put slower cars in the advanced group, which is just fine by me. One of the RSR cars was in advanced, and someone had a MINI challenge car there too, very cool, and they definitely held their own). I ran with MVP a few years ago when I was just starting, and ran in the beginners group. That group is one to avoid; many first timers on the track, and instructors are optional.

    Only thing I hate is the 45 minute drivers meeting at the beginning of the day. Too long!
    But once you get passed that, the group is well organized, runs efficiently, and I've always had a good time with them. I'll run with them once or twice again next year, depending on scheduling.

    I don't know where you live, but one other group I'd put a huge plug in for is the North Woods Shelby Club--their events are relatively cheap, relatively small numbers of cars, (as opposed to MVP, which is about the size of your average BMWCCA event, maybe even larger) very well organized, and a GREAT group of people. I was the only MINI out there with them at Blackhawk, held my own and had a great time, and was treated fantastically by that group--a few people asked for rides, which was very cool--wasn't expecting a group predominantly made up of Mustang drivers to want to get into my car. Probably my favorite group overall, or at least tied with the BMWCCA.
     
  12. BThayer23

    BThayer23 Well-Known Member

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    Ugh, just watched that video (youtube blocked till after 5pm at work). That's a hairy offline situation. CMP has a kink like that, VIR's isn't as tight, both are right-handers. Neither one is fun when you have to change direction suddenly, and I think it's worse during a DE 'cause everybody's driving the school line and nobody's scrubbing the pavement offline. You tend to get a lot of marbles, especially near the high-speed corners. That Viper made a big move to get behind you (and again after the kink) - maybe that's what the 'Vette driver was looking at.
     
  13. BThayer23

    BThayer23 Well-Known Member

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    Cool. I ran with them late last year at Road Atlanta. I didn't have the best experience; I spent most of the weekend scared of the track. First time at Road Atlanta, and I was still getting my intermediate legs under me. The huge concrete walls right next to the track didn't help my anxiety, nor did the optional instructors. But I think I'd run with them again if I knew the track better. We had a few 30 minute sessions that added another element because they were so long.
     
  14. cct1

    cct1 Well-Known Member
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    That pretty much sums up my experience with MVP. If you don't need an instructor and you know the track, it's a great group to run with. I'm familar with Road America and Blackhawk, so I run there with them. I don't know if I'd run with them on a track I wasn't familiar with; I'd probably go with a group that offers dedicated instruction, then when I was comfortable, run with MVP on that track.

    MVP runs 20-25 minute sessions at Road America (mostly 20's with a couple of 25's at the end of the day); I've run 30 minutes with other groups, and I think for me 25 minutes is just about right, for both me and the car. After 25 minutes, the brakes (and my driving) starts to get a little squirrely.
     
  15. minimark

    minimark Well-Known Member

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    MVP Track Time is just that; track time. If you want a school do BMWCCA or NASA. Also ran RA with MVP last year and had a great time, albiet I did run the beginners group the first day and did my fair share of "Dodge car". Will run with MVP again in intermediate!!!
     
  16. ScottinBend

    ScottinBend Space Cowboy
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    Sounds like it was just one of those rookie things then. Glad it all worked out.
     

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