Couple items... We have a family friend who's BMW through and through. It was time to replace her 98 3 series, and she gave me a call to ask me what I thought. Because she has a long commute and has a husband that's 6'4", I suggested the 535d, the 335d and if she was interested in it, an X series (she lives in the Sierra foothills). She was skeptical of the diesels but I assured her that they were really bitchen' cars and that she'd be surprised. With her long commute the oil burner would really pay off. Anyway, she was bummed to find that the 5d was two years off (wtf?) here in the US. But in the 535 she drove, she just didn't like it cause it felt like a 7 series and was too upscale. And she didn't like the steering. She was surprised by how much she liked the engine in the 335d, but her husband was a bit cramped in it. She wasn't interested in an X, cause thay have a larger SUV for the family... Anyway, while she liked the 335d, she wasn't really swept off her feet the way she has been in decades of BMW ownership..... Cut to the August Car and Driver, and the 535i finished third to the Infinity M37 and an older design Autid A6 3.0T! WTF? Car and driver complained about the ghastly steering feel, the percieved weight of the car (as it shares the chassis of the 7) as well as the fact that it's gone upscale in the interior bits.... What I find interesting is that what our friend Anna said about the steering not being BMW like was the main object of complaint in C&D, and she's not really a car nut. Elsewhere in the mag, there's a story of the new head of the ///M group, a guy named Kay Segler, who was the Brand Chief at MINI! Anyway, he's a marketing guy, not an engineer. (BTW, C&D has high hopes for him). Back to the M stuff. "Over the past few years, the M division strayed from its hard-core enthusiast origins." Duh... Then it goes on to say the first examples were the V10 M5 and M6, dumps all over the X6M as everything an M shouldn't be and on and on. (Kind of an echo of the how to save JCW stuff posted here and elsewhere). Talks about how the M3 GTS is a step in the right direction (though I fail to see how a run of 150 cars will do anything real for the brand, as very few will own them and no one in the US will drive on on the street.) At least they're no longer talking about the 1 series as the successor to the 2002, and more accurately talking about the 1 series M varient as the better decendant of early M3s..... All of these things share some common themes: Upsizing the cars (in weight, ammenities and every other stat) leads to increased sales, but more and more divergence from what made the cars great. So they sell more less compelling cars. Sure small runs of light cars that are astronomical in price does something in the mags (they all get massive woodies about what is in effect automotive vaporware), but the standard offerings are still too heavy, and too expensive. The 1 isn't selling as well as it could, in part because it's such a small step up to a 3 (I've never been a big fan of the 1, some because of the lack of headroom with a helmet (make the effin sunroof delete a factory option!) and some because I have kids now and a bit more cabin space is a plus, but mostly becuase it's too effin heavy!) Long time BMW fans (well, one I know at least) who would have been a shoe in to buy a 5 series of one or two generations past just gives the 5er a pass, and horror of horrors, I see a X6M in the Target parking lot! What is BMW to do indeed..... Matt
Why has Audi passed BMW in desirability... They have stayed close for form and not tried to be all things to all market niches. MS went through this with the proliferation of models to fill every market hole. In the end the engineering and quality suffered. MB used to use the slogan "Engineered like no other car in the world" and for a time it was. Then we saw them try to gain market share with the C class cars. Add in that "Merger of Equals" that was so poorly done and MB became a shell of it's self. BMW is headed down that same road. BMW used to use “The Ultimate Driving Machine”. Now we have "Joy". WTF does that mean. In this race to be all things to all people BMW has lost it's way too. BMW needs to look back its roots and stop creating these X5 M and X6 M vehicles. The 3 series was on the C&D 10 best list for years because it was good. Now look at it, fat, bloated, stuffed with electronics that no one asked for. And...NO dipstick! BMW can do better and needs to do so soon before they get relegated to the "just another car" heap.
Much the same as the American companies did when instead of having "car guys" decide and design cars that they would want to drive, they let the marketing departments and their committees decide how to build cars that would on paper appeal to the most folks in a market... Failure followed as the cars they produced, no one enjoyed driving and anyone worth a greasy finger ran to guess who? Manufacturers like BMW who were building cars that delivered a true driving experience in a quality package with, in comparison, little money spent on advertising programs held so dear to the hearts of every marketer worth his weight in market surveys. That money was spent at the race track and on building a product we the car people wanted to drive and buy. And again, people learn little from the lessons history has to teach..... Even recent history. Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk
If you want to drive a great BMW, get a nice E36 or E46 3 Series and put some money into it. As recently as 2006, BMW still made a great car.
Can the same be said of MINI branching out into so many different non-mini models. BMW is trying to make MINI a brand and not a particular car (or two). I'm not liking the overal direction things are going.
They cater to all niches....it's just hidden way better with separated brand identities. I.E. Volkswagens, and porsches. VAG has basically filled every single niche possible from a $15k 4 door economy hatch up to a porsche supercar and everything in between with sporty hatches, luxury vehicles, crossover SUV's, large SUV's, grocery getters, race cars, and sporty 2 seat convertibles. They truly have a full spectrum to attend to the wants and needs of all sorts of people, and they do it well because, IMO, they haven't tarnished any of the Brand names (with the exception of the Panamera, perhaps:lol
OK, so what's the difference between Audi and BMW then? Audi's cars are also overweight, feature laden and as Rally says, they've filled every niche too....... I don't see a whole lot of difference - they've also follwed BMW upmarket in their pricing too. An A4 currently is the size an A6 used to be - I know, I have a 2004 Allroad which was based on the A6 Avant chassis, if I park it next to a current gen A4, it's the same size car...... So, Audis are bigger and heavier, with more gizmos, and they've pretty much built a car for every niche - in fact Audi has more models than BMW between the R8, TT in roadster and coupe, various CUV/SUVs, long wheelbase A8's etc, the upcoming A1 - I mean, what niche is left? So how come Audi is praised and BMW is vilified in this article? I don't see it....... I'm not saying I'm happy with the direction BMW has gone, but to hold Audi up as the paragons of what they should have done........I'm not so sure about that. As to looks, while in general I like Audi's design language, that giant "shield grill" is anything but attractive - different maybe, but good looking? I don't think so....
Agree, while Audi is producing some very fine automobiles, they too have subscribed to the "bigger is better" mantra... As in most designing, from homes to boats the easiest way to solve a problem or add to the perception of improvement is to increase space instead of improving within set boundaries. "Less is more" is far more difficult to engineer and is the product of only the very gifted few..... Exactly why the original Mini's design was so incredible and long lasting. It took shear genius to achieve so much from so little in such a finite space. Same could be said of the 2002 which saved and made BMW... Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk
I think that the comparisons between Audi and BMW are overstated to make a contrast. I also think here in the US BMW has more problems because they want to perpetuate the upscale image and don't sell the lower priced cars of the marque here. In a way, what has happened in the US was inevitable. While there is overlap between sporting (ultimate driving machine) and luxury, a larger amount of those that want luxury want the image of performance while getting all the features and appearance of the upscale statement that the BMW name evokes. As there is desire for increased unit sales at higher prices, more and more buyers are after the content and less and less are after the really performance oriented experience that created the BMW name in the first place. Hence we get the things like the X6M, the X3 and X5 in huge number, but we don't get a low content 1 series 5 door hatch. So they follow the market, and the market demands that they be different than thier roots. It's really easy to see that the "Joy" campaign was a marketing miss-step. Why they ever went away from "The Ultimate Driving Machine" is anyone's guess... They didn't need to. But BMW has a handicap that Audi doesn't. BMW is a stand alone car firm, and Audi is part of the VAG group. BMW dev costs have to be spread across fewer units, there are less oportunities for chassis sharing and the like. On another point, pretty much every car company "upsizes" the models over time. This is to keep the customer as the customer grows older and the demands change. So pretty much every car gets bigger until another name comes along to grab what would have been the first time buyer. So a Civic grew, the 3 series grew, the A4 grew, the Mustang grew (Several times!) The 1 series isn't a new 2002, it's really the rebirth of the 3, but even that (despite it's excellent driving dynamics) here in the US isn't a 3 replacement, cause they only brought over the two door coupe. I agree with the posts above that BMW could do a lot to regain what they were buy focusing on some weight reduction. Even with the content and the technology that they have, no car should leave the factory that doesn't have crisp steering and a handling charecter that feels lighter than the car is. (How the new 5 came out with bad steering feel should have some heads rolling back in Germany) Focus more on new high strenght steels, Al, Ti and Mg to lighten the car. Carbon Fiber sounds all nice and light, but really, it's a while off before that's a mainstream body panel, and even though it will be light, it's gonna really drive up the costs of collision repair for a while to come. The 750i I got to flog could be made to dance if pushed, but only by giving it Titanic torque to move around Sherman tank like mass. If the car weighed 15% less, (it's almost 4600 lbs. That's more than the XF R, A8L, althogh all of those could shed weight too), then it wouldn't need an engine that could power a small township to get it to move! A case can be made that anything that wears a BMW badge should be the best handling vehicle in that market, and still allow for some niche vehicles that don't fit the BMW of old. But as long as they are as obese as they are, stuffing luxury appointments into each and every vehicle, they will be the proverbial snake eating it's tail. Here in the US, they could solve a lot of that by bringing in deconted "stripper" versions that were lighter, and hence performed better, than the luxo-barges that is the current norm. Matt
IMO, it's because BMW was always touted as the "driving machine" for enthusiasts while Audi has always just been more of a midway-luxury vehicle in most people's eyes. I know audi has a strong motorsports program, but I think the general public consensus is that it's less sporty than BMW has portrayed themselves and more of a sporty-luxury car. So when they both start turning out "luxo-barges", it's par for the course when it comes to audi but it seems like a divergence for BMW. With that said...I can't wait to see how the 1-series M performs. That could be a modern day e30 m3 if they played their cards right. I'm skeptical, but it sounds like it's gonna be a great car. I personally can't get over the front end styling though:frown5:
Really? You think the stripper's would sell in enough volume to make a business case for them? I don't..... To me that's the problem, it's not just BMW that's added content, every mfr has, from the bottom of their line to the top. Even the least expensive Corollas and Fiesta's have power windows, locks, A/C, power steering, ABS and on and on..... So, what could they leave out that would substantially net them weight reductions and cost, and still offer a car the public will buy in sufficient numbers to make it worthwhile? I know there are those among us who would be happy with less - my Clubby has Zenons, cold weather package, auto trans and cruise, roof rails and the arm rest - that's all I ordered. But even still it has a gazillion air bags, ABS, DCS, a turbo and all that it entails, power windows and locks and on and on. I prefer lighter, nimbler vehicles, but I still want A/C and cruise, Zenons and enough HP - to get all that I get the rest of it too..... If they offered decontented vehicles in the lower end of the product lineup at a significant enough price point, maybe they could begin to wean people off the need to have every option in their car, but I doubt it.
Yep as the price of the toy rises so does the demands of those that can afford them. We wouldn't want to muck up our Armani suit in a sparten interior would we? Just a few weeks back whilst running in a NASA HPDE at Road Atlanta, sitting on the grid sweating in 98° weather, a chap in a brand new Cayman S was waiting next to me with his windows up, air conditioning on and I presume a bit of Bach coming from his satellite radio...... LOL Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk
Mazda still offers stripper versions of the miata without roll down windows, etc. I always thought that was super cool. (Ok, maybe not on the MX5...I'm not seeing the option anymore. They definitely had it on the previous model though).
Manual Windows is something we may never see again. Economy of scale and commonality of window motors across a wide range of vehicles it is now cheaper to install power windows than manual ones.
If they sold lower end cars like they do in Europe, all those that strive to be BMW owners would be able to get into the brand at lower price points. Then they'd be bonded to the brand as thier budget increases. So yes, I think that they would sell in pretty good numbers because people who can't get into the brand now (at least in the US) would be able to get into the brand. Also people like me (Our clubby was $22.6k in 2008. Metallic paint, heated seats and iPod adaptor were all we added to the car), could then buy a car without all the garbage in it that we didn't want. You CAN'T buy a 1 without a sunroof..... You CAN'T buy a 1 with a 4 banger.... Yes, feature content creep hits all the brands..... But imagine if you could actually get a BMW with nothing but the motor you wanted, without all the required bloat that we have to take with the car here. The true performance junkies would get a stripped car with a big motor, or add a turbo or blower to a 2 banger 4 pot and have a killer track car, and still get the more luxurious sedan for the street. Also, if you read the letters in Roundel, it's pretty obvious that the real performance junkies are getting pissed or buying used, while BMW sales grow to those that want the luxo barge with the racing pedigree. Matt ps, my friend Anna bought the 335d....
BMW and Audi are both lightyears away from cars like the E30 M3. I agree with Rally that Audi gets somewhat of a "pass" because they have always been more "luxury" that "Ultimate Driving Machine", but they're both in similar positions, now. I talk about this with one of my coworkers all the time. It's incredibly unlikely that I'm going to buy a new BMW because they're too heavy, expensive, complicated, etc... and like Dr. said, I can't even order one the way I really want it (Stripper 335 Touring would be nice). So, maybe I'll buy one used? Even THAT is unlikely. I'm fairly competent working on my own vehicles (quite a few suspension swaps, heads/cam, etc. on my Mustangs, for instance), but you can't even buy a new-ish BMW that doesn't have all sorts of techno-baubles and crap on it. Our stripped Cooper isn't ultra-simple, but it's new (so I get at least a few years where I'm not doing the work or paying for it), and it's still not like the E90 M3 I'd love to have. Point being, BMW has made it's latest cars too heavy, complex, and relatively expensive for me. Most of the other Euro brands have done the same long ago, too. At least BMW outweighed it's sins with great driving dynamics for many years... but those years seem to be fading. So, what's the answer? Make all the cars smaller/lighter/cheaper? I think it's safe to say that's never going to happen, so who knows. At the very least build some stripper versions that don't charge you a HUGE premium to remove features. Also, build the smaller, lighter, simpler car that the 1-series *should* have been.
Simple. The R8. When was the last time BMW had a halo car? I'd say the M1, E28 M5, 850CSi, and Z8 all fit the bill, but where's their current shining example of automotive excellence? The X6M??? 760iL??? Heck, the GP was a great example of a halo car, but as with BMW, the latest generation hasn't offered any comparable cars. I know times are tight, but it'd be nice if what BMW sees as the best expression of their brand isn't a family hauler on steroids, but rather a racetrack beast eponymous with dominance in the highest class of motorsport. Build a car that shows us what the engineers stay up late dreaming about.
Amen They've not exactly been kicking arse on the track either.... read the F1 debacle, le Mans, absence from European touring car, etc, etc... Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk
