Brakes Idea 1st Gen A possible different bigger brake idea and, Meth Injection and more

Discussion in '1st Generation: 2002–06 R50, R53 & 2004–08 R52' started by Whine not Walnuts, Jun 11, 2018.

  1. Whine not Walnuts

    Whine not Walnuts MINI Alliance Ambassador

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    Now there may be an old post on the matter but I have never found anything when I did google type searches here or over on NAM. To start, the Gen1 JCW uses a 294mm front rotor and the R56 front caliper that has a 54mm piston (about 3 1/2" of area). Next, Wilwood has several different kits for the Gen1 with the least expensive being a rotor just a little bit larger than the 294's but whereas the JCW has a thickness of .86", the Wilwood is .81". A big cost of any Wilwood kit are the brackets that adapt their caliper to the MINI hub assembly.

    I am retired so lots of time to research things. I was reading some Miata postings and noted where a guy had bought a Wilwood caliper and made his own bracket to mount them. The selection of Wilwoods that fit the .86" JCW rotor are not that great and it appears that many of the kits utilize a 1" rotor spec. When you go with a 1" rotor selection the options become pretty good.

    I got thinking about making my own bracket, something that is not that difficult if you use a "lug" mount configuration similar to what I saw on the Miata Forum. With this in mind and looking for something with a bigger brake pad either the 120-13845 or the 120-15254 appear to work. Both are Dynalite types with the 15254 being the least expensive. The 13845 has lug centers of 5 1/4" and the 15254 has 3 1/2". Both have total piston areas of about 4.8 square inches, a 36% increase from the JCW/R56 caliper.

    There are a large selection of pads with the BP-20s being in the $70 range, the calipers are around $130 and the lines approximately $65.

    Anybody ever gone this type of route?
     
  2. Whine not Walnuts

    Whine not Walnuts MINI Alliance Ambassador

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    I took a bunch of measurements and it does appear it would work with no issues on my 17" wheels and depending on your type of rims perhaps with a 16". The caliper is about the same length as the JCW/r56 (just over 7") and is just a little bit wider based upon the approximate 1.75 inches from the outside edge of the rotor to the outside edge of the caliper. The Wilwoods are not as tall as the JCW/r56s and therefore the JCW/r56s have a bigger pad at approximately 8 square inches vs the Wilwood of 6.36 square inches.

    We might get lucky and have a brake/auto engineer that could explain some of the finer details here as it appears we have over 36% more clamping power but the pad is about 25% smaller.

    Wilwood.jpg
     
  3. Sully

    Sully Administrator
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    Interesting thread here .. watching - I’m helping a buddy on a LS swap into an 88 lotus Esprit. He had to make the brackets to move the brakes from in board to “normal”. He also used Wilwood. I will check with him to see if he did the design/load work or if someone else did. His is a pretty slick setup. Will try and get some pics. I think his mounts were 3D printed.
     
  4. Whine not Walnuts

    Whine not Walnuts MINI Alliance Ambassador

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    Would think there are formulas where all this could be calculated. I recognize that a bigger diameter rotor has more "stopping" force than a smaller rotor as the relationship is similar to a lever or a small gear turning a larger one.. Then the coefficient of friction for the brake pad comes into play. I have to do more research on the calipers as would think that leading and trailing may impact orientation/placement.

    It appears that many of the Wilwood MINI kits are based on their .81 rotor whereas the R56/JCW caliper works off a .86 rotor. Yes this is a small increase but I do wonder if even that small amount is able to address the heat build up better.
     
  5. myles2go

    myles2go Active Member

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    Honestly, this seems like a lot of effort for little to no gain. You can get used R56 Brembo calipers cheap and they bolt right up.
     
  6. Whine not Walnuts

    Whine not Walnuts MINI Alliance Ambassador

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    I have not seen too many cheap r56 Brembo/jcw calipers out there. It appears the Brembo/jcw's have 1.5" pistons which means the clamping force is less than the Wilwoods above and are actually almost the same as the r56S caliper that is 36% less than the Wilwoods. I have not researched the pressure difference between the Gen1 and Gen2 brake master cylinder but on the Gen1s, it does not appear that 4-pop brembos are going to do much more than the r56S units.

    Thinking the Gen2 JCW rotors are 330mm vs the Gen1 294mm so even with the same clamping force the stopping force is increased. So the question is will the Wilwoods above with 294 rotors provide similar numbers to the small brembos with the larger 330 rotors??
     
  7. Sully

    Sully Administrator
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    Will the GP2 brakes bolt up? I need to do some research but I believe those are standard BMW M Calipers and Rotors. I can say, those brakes rock once you get used to the very light pedal feel... which I do need to figure out. Granted when I’m not driving it I’m in a 250 truck, Volvo or the M5 all which have a much heavier brake pedal.
     
  8. Whine not Walnuts

    Whine not Walnuts MINI Alliance Ambassador

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    Somewhere either here or on NAM I read where the GP2, which is the same as a 135i, are a couple of MM bolt spacing off but the guy reamed the hole out a little .

    At the end of the day this was more of a low budget upgrade option. Thinking the GP2s would require 18" wheels.
     
  9. Whine not Walnuts

    Whine not Walnuts MINI Alliance Ambassador

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    Anybody know the pressure differences between the Gen1 and Gen2 systems?
     
  10. Dave.0

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    Brembo’s are always better then Wildwoods period. Ever see a professional race / track car with Wildwood brakes........ nope.

    Wildwood’s are more of a “fashion” brake. If Willwoods were any good I am sure at least one of the many car manufacturers would use them bet they don’t. The all use Brembo’s for a reason, the work the best.

    I will be upgrading to Brembo’s soon with the larger rotors and they bolt right up to my R53.
     
  11. Whine not Walnuts

    Whine not Walnuts MINI Alliance Ambassador

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    Well nothing but the best for the Mistress but what about somebody that has a Bitch, they might not want to spend that money on her.

    To me it is going to come down to the master cylinder pressure for the everyday track wannabe. On the Gen1, IMO the brembo even with a larger rotor might not be as good as the Wilwoods with the right pads and 294 rotors. And the latter is cheaper if you buy the Wilwood kit without the rotors but with the brackets to mount onto the Gen1 hubs. I see those Wilwood kits for $750 whereas the cheapest Gen2 Brembos with rotors I have seen are a set that Dustin has at ALLMAG. Now I cannot tell from the Wilwood kit what calipers are getting as they normally have three different piston sizes.
     
  12. Whine not Walnuts

    Whine not Walnuts MINI Alliance Ambassador

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    To clarify, the "track wannabe" does not track. I fully understand the big brake kits when you are shedding triple digit speeds entering a corner but for most purposes of street driving IMO they are more bling than anything else.

    Just my two cents . . . . .
     
  13. MCS02

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    Great thread.
     
  14. ScottinBend

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    Interested also.....
     
  15. Whine not Walnuts

    Whine not Walnuts MINI Alliance Ambassador

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  16. Whine not Walnuts

    Whine not Walnuts MINI Alliance Ambassador

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    The one thing with Wilwood is that you can pull the part number up and get good information on the piston sizes. On Brembo that does not appear to be the case. I have spent several hours trying to determine whether the calipers from other makes of cars will work on the MINI. There are Brembos out there that might work but you can never find the information on what the piston size is and after figuring out today that the Gen2 JCW Brembos don't have any more piston area than the R56 oems I look at the pictures and just think to myself there is no way in hell those things have decent size pistons.

    Allot of this reminds me back when a carpet salesman was telling me that Dupont Nylon in his carpet was so much better than regular nylon. He even had a marketing handout that showed the Dupont stuff being a whole lot thicker than the other nylons out there. "Our 6-6 Nylon is so much better." I got thinking about this and realized that nylon is a hydrocarbon and that 6 is the atomic number of carbon. Did more digging and Dupont had a special patent as their 6-6 had 2 carbon atoms in the molecule of their nylon where the others had only 1. He came in a couple of days later and when I hit him up with "don't give me this shit that one more carbon atom is going to make your nylon SOOOOOO much thicker than the other stuff", he just turned around and left.

    So is BMW blowing smoke up our butts with those Brembo calipers being so much better and charging an arm and a leg for them?
     
  17. myles2go

    myles2go Active Member

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    I guess it depends on timing and were you look. I bought a full set of used R56 JCW calipers, front and rears, for $100 per caliper last year and had them on my GP for the dragon this year.

    Bigger pads and larger rotors also give better heat dispersion. If you're going to drive it hard this is an important factor to consider.

    It's not all about clamping force. The 4 pot calipers allow for larger pads and better distribution of the force to the pad.
     
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  18. Whine not Walnuts

    Whine not Walnuts MINI Alliance Ambassador

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    As I had to say over on the NAM, talking possibles and/or options here.

    IMO finding a set of Gen2 JCW calipers for $400 is the exception and not the rule for once the word Brembo shows up in any ad the $$$$$$$ follows.

    Next, regardless how big/good the brakes are, once the friction of the pad to rotor exceeds that of the tire to the road, it is all a mute point.

    On clamping force and heat, in my feeble little mind clamping force does matter in the short run but as the energy from the motion of car is converted to heat during braking yes a bigger pad will have the ability to dissipate the heat quicker. On friction areas, the Brembo is around 14 sq inches of surface area whereas the R56 is around 7.8 and the Wilwood is 6.4. Would think the Wilwood with the smallest pad area and the largest piston area would have one helluva bite but then they would also be creating the most heat in the smallest area so they would fade the quickest under constant heavy braking.

    So, if you are lucky enough to find a very good deal on used Brembos, buy them. If you cannot and do not want to spend anywhere from $750 to well over $1,000 for Wilwoods, then the "possible" idea I have floated with costs of around $300 plus the price of some steel to fab your bracket AND you are not tracking the car, might work quite well for you.
     
  19. Whine not Walnuts

    Whine not Walnuts MINI Alliance Ambassador

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    Between the two sites have over 900 views on this topic. I have an email string going with a Tech at Wilwood. Told him about these threads and hoping that he might provide some more information on piston sizes etc.
     
  20. myles2go

    myles2go Active Member

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    It's an interesting idea and seems cost effective with an initial $300 price tag. If you have the time, and you can make the brackets yourself, it will be cheap and you'll have something no one else has. That's cool, if that is your goal.

    I'm assuming that your R52 doesn't have the JCW brakes and you're looking to improve what you have for normal street use. If you want the best bang for the buck improvement in stopping power, buy the R56s calipers, these are really cheap and you get the larger rotor, and buy a set of G-Loc GS-1 pads. This will probably cost less money, bolts right on, and performs better.
     

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