Brakes Idea 1st Gen A possible different bigger brake idea and, Meth Injection and more

Discussion in '1st Generation: 2002–06 R50, R53 & 2004–08 R52' started by Whine not Walnuts, Jun 11, 2018.

  1. Whine not Walnuts

    Whine not Walnuts Active Member
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    I need to do some research on a way to lower the redline. I know it can be done when you are tuning, I am wondering whether something like ista can do it.
     
  2. vetsvette

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    Wait, what? I’m supposed to keep my brembo’s below 16000 RPM......
    Or methanol something overheating. This is all too confusing.
    I’m going back to my nap.
     
  3. Whine not Walnuts

    Whine not Walnuts Active Member
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    Yes I know, blame it on NAM
     
  4. Whine not Walnuts

    Whine not Walnuts Active Member
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    More hijacking but on the MI systems, I found this:

    In my searches I came across this:

    On 19% pulleys, there are lots of 19 and 17+2 cars, and in the UK they run up to 22 % pulleys with mods. A person would need to data log temps to make sure the pump is not cavitating, which I don't see happening. Even at the track you are not at 7000 rpm constantly.

    You will not get good info on US forums, the builders focus on peak hp not hp over time, and people just parrot what they have heard. The reason r56 is faster on the track is it makes more power between 4000 and 6000 so you have more torque over a longer period, 19 % closes that gap I've thought about it on my track car, I dont really care if I wreck a supercharger they are not that expensive anymore, and I have a new jcw SC in the garage on the spare motor.

    Also on the US forums they usually do not understand water vs meth, water will cool better, 100 % is the best for cooling but meth will raise the octane more. If you tune for meth, god forbid the meth pump fails, that is why I use it only for cooling. I would never run over 50 % due to the invisible fire issue, and pretty much all race tracks have banned methanol. At the end of the day its how you plan on driving the car.


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  5. MCS02

    MCS02 Moderator
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    Good stuff. But come on like they don't parrot crap over there? I'm on Mini2. Meth is not banned over here so we are in a different situation. He is correct you can spin something to fast, they have a design limit. Also I agree if I had a car I was going to track a lot I would plan on stuff braking and plan accordingly.
     
  6. Dave.0

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    Those euro guys are tools and I will leave it at that.
     
  7. Whine not Walnuts

    Whine not Walnuts Active Member
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    With your redline and 17% pulley are there issues with water pump cavitation? At 7500 rpms your supercharger is spinning at 18,780 rpms and at 8000 you are at 20,000 rpms. Both are well above a 19% pulley with a 7000 rpm redline (actually think its 6950) that works out to 17,800. A stock redline engine would require a 33% pulley to push the numbers that the Mistress has.

    She is one special lady . . . . .
     
  8. Dave.0

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    Yes, yes she is and she has been built and very well maintained to take the abuse when I wind it out all the way. You have to remember my car is not a daily driver anymore since I now work from home. I used to drive the car everyday for years but have no need to do that now.

    That’s also why I replace parts that still are fine and working like the tensioner, belt and idler pulley, crank pulley and SC / Wayerpump long before they fail. I have also replaced the alternator and will now be doing the A/C compressor since it finally died at about 105,000 miles.

    I am redoing a set of Brembo calibers and have all the othe new parts (rotors, lines, pads, fluid) waiting to go on when the A/C compressor is replaced at Helix later in August.
     
  9. Whine not Walnuts

    Whine not Walnuts Active Member
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    I will do some data logging on both the boost and intake temperatures. You have the Mistress running like a rat on Walter White meth so I am thinking with the cooling of a low injection of 70% water and 30% meth either an 18% or a 19% is in my future.

    I also work from home, getting my SS check each month, so my car is not driven that much. Guys like Teddy and me just need all you younger folks to keep working so the only work we do is think of ways to spend our handout each month . . . . . .























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  10. MCS02

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    You may be right. The only way to know is to do it. If you decide to go with this set up it would be nice if you get before and after dyno numbers. I really believe you may be spinning the SC to fast But I am not an engineer and I did not stay in a Holiday Inn. The meth may make this work because it will take care if the heat. The only thing is I highly recommend getting a electric water pump. The pump may be ok but it goes it could take everything with it.
     
  11. Dave.0

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    Meth will not help the SC temps at all.

    Meth is for cooling the fuel and intake temps and it keeps everything very clean inside the motor. That’s also why oil gets dirty faster and requires more frequent oil changes no matter what oil you choose. I use Meth for Cooling, Power (tuned for extra octane) and keeping everything clean.

    The M45 with a 15,17 or 19 % pulley is way passed the designed use and temps of the SC. It all comes down to how fast do you want to spin your SC and shorten it’s lifespan. Spinning the SC past 15 & !7% will cause it to heat up more meaning you are pumping hot air not cool compressed air. You have to find the balance that works for you and your intended use of the car.

    Mixing water and meth has no real benefit in the R53 W11 motor at all but will help the later Direct Ingection motors with carbon buildup.
     
  12. Whine not Walnuts

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    From what I have read and some common sense, it appears that as allot of the heat build up from the SC is that it can create more air than can go through the intake valves, the backpressure equates to more resistance that therefore results in more heat. With a cam, a header and a high flow cat, my boost values are down around 11 PSI, at least according to my very inexpensive mechanical boost gauge so a couple more PSI from a smaller pulley might not be that bad. Next, the boost developed from the Eaton is not completely linear but it is closely related to the engine rpms.

    Now if the you can believe all the literature from Eaton that the M45 was made to handle 14,000 rpms and that the maximum spin rate could not exceed 16,000 then there are more than few MINIs that exceed that value each day as every JCW every produced either by a dealer or the factory exceeds the 16,000 limit. Then you add on everybody that ever put a 15% or higher number value pulley on their car. Last you have the Mistress with her equivalent 33% pulley. A MINI with a 19% pulley and at an engine rpm of 6,274 has a supercharger spinning at 16,000 rpm. At 6,500 rpms this same equipped 19% pulley car is matching the JCW supercharger spin of 16,583 rpms. These are approximate but for discussion purposes I would think they could be used.

    On the water/meth injection rate, I am thinking the water being the larger percentage does most of the cooling and the methanol with its high octane but low btu release helps level out the gas amount that is displaced by the injection while at the same time helping to keep EGTs down. The MINI and its narrow band O2 sensor cannot significantly moderate the gas volume displaced by the MI mixture, I thought from what I read. Would think this is basic physics and the engine design does not carry that much of an impact. Hopefully somebody a whole lot smarter than me will chime in and point where my logic is flawed.

    Yes any time alky is added into the mix, oil dilution should be addressed but most of what I read deals more with methanol oil dilution due to the methanol being the only fuel agent and remember that it takes about twice as much alcohol to create the same energy output as gas; 30 mpg on gas but only 15 mpg on methanol. I have read that MI varies from 10-12% on the low end to possibly 25% on the high end. So if the Mistress is at that high end then for every 128 ounces (1 gallon) of fuel (gas and MI) consumed by the engine there is approximately 96 ounces of gas and 32 ounces of methanol. On low percentage MI with a 70% water/30% methanol that 32 ounces is reduced to approximately 4 ounces.

    I am hoping that some long slumbering MA members that have forgotten more about MI than I will most likely ever know will make some posts here.
     
  13. Whine not Walnuts

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    [QUOTE="Dave.0, post: 406585, member: 61"]Meth will not help the SC temps at all.

    Meth is for cooling the fuel and intake temps and it keeps everything very clean inside the motor. That’s also why oil gets dirty faster and requires more frequent oil changes no matter what oil you choose. I use Meth for Cooling, Power (tuned for extra octane) and keeping everything clean.

    The M45 with a 15,17 or 19 % pulley is way passed the designed use and temps of the SC. It all comes down to how fast do you want to spin your SC and shorten it’s lifespan. Spinning the SC past 15 & !7% will cause it to heat up more meaning you are pumping hot air not cool compressed air. You have to find the balance that works for you and your intended use of the car.

    Mixing water and meth has no real benefit in the R53 W11 motor at all but will help the later Direct Ingection motors with carbon buildup.[/QUOTE]

    I would think the atomizing affect of the nozzle on any liquid, be it water or methanol, into an airflow would result in the airflow temperature being reduced.
     
  14. Dave.0

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    You are missing the point completely.

    The SC does not see any meth at all ever.
     
  15. Whine not Walnuts

    Whine not Walnuts Active Member
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    Correct and I do not think I ever said it did. The injection point is after the supercharger and the intercooler. This thread has evolved into discussing the impact of the MI and the impact of increased rotation of the supercharger that has a direct correlation with the rotation of the water pump. MI is a method to mitigate intake temperatures, boost octane of the fuel mixture and if desired modify the timing to advance spark to gain more power.

    My intent has been to utilize MI in a manner so that when I install a smaller pulley on the supercharger the additional heat created by the increased rotation of the supercharger via the smaller pulley is mitigated. I do not plan on using MI to change the tuning/timing to take advantage of either additional octane/energy from the methanol or the decreased intake temperatures produced by either atomizing of a straight methanol injection or a mix of water and methanol.
     
  16. Whine not Walnuts

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    The other aspect that needs to discussed in this thread is whether the injectors need to increase in size. I already have RMW 450's and would contact Jan with on my thoughts. When I changed my crank pulley to the ATI 2% overdrive I contacted him to verify the impacts on the tune he gave me to install after I put his Dominator Cam and the 450's in.

    I am using this and other forums as a sounding board to voice my thoughts and attempt to obtain differing thoughts to consider.

    That it has done.
     
  17. MCS02

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    Ok I will through one thought in here. I know everyone knows most if not all of what I am about to say.
    Then you compress gas in this case air going through the SC it heats up. Then we use different methods to cool the air before entering the combustion chamber. That is one part of this equation that has been talked about. The other part is the efficiency of the SC. It compresses more as you spine it faster. It also creates more heat. The SC becomes more efficient as it spins faster to a point then as this heat continues to increases the efficiency starts to drop off. at that point what you gain in boost you lose in heat. The SC is no longer at its peak. So there comes a point that the faster you spin it the more you lose.

    So lets go back to the Meth. At this point it doesn't matter if you cool the temps before it goes into the intake you have already lost because the SC is being spun too fast.

    You are correct your boost numbers go down with things like cams and big valves but it still comes down that the SC is turning faster then its peak efficiency. The design of the impellers can only do so much. To fix this problem you have to step up to the Eaton TVS 900 SC. It is a better design.

    Of cours I could be completely wrong.
     
  18. Whine not Walnuts

    Whine not Walnuts Active Member
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    The crazy thing about the Heaton as Dave.0 likes to call it, is what is the magic point where it is no longer efficient? Eaton already says its 16,000 but as I noted all the JCWs ever built and anybody with an aftermarket pulley are operating at values that exceed the value Eaton says not to operate at. Then you throw in the crazy revs that Dave.0 has and I just scratch my head.

    What is also interesting is that with all the talk on cavitation of the pump I have not found anybody that says it happened to them.
     
  19. Whine not Walnuts

    Whine not Walnuts Active Member
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    Ahhhhhhh, actually I started the thread to talk about different brake options. Good to know that I can still make myself look stupid without anybody helping
     
  20. MCS02

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    Eaton is looking at reliability also that figures in on that number not just efficiency. The article I was looking for addressed this better than me. But after the testing Web did he felt you were past the thermal range of the SC
     

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