BIGGER is BETTER!!! A FAQ on the Bosch 550cc injectors for R53

Discussion in 'Bytetronik Tuning Discussion- Archive only' started by [email protected], Mar 11, 2010.

  1. mike@MynesTuned

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    #1 [email protected], Mar 11, 2010
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2010
    Why do we recommend 550cc injectors for cars with minimal mods? Read below for a quick summary from a fellow MINI owner from NAM and proceed to the FAQ below:

    Based on our findings and real-time monitoring of the MINI motoring during the many tunes that we've done, the above post brought up many good points. A lot of times customers mistakenly think that the injectors are able to run at 100% duty cycle; that's not true. At 80% duty cycle, the injector are getting close to the limits; at 100%, they are just like a water hose, staying open and just spraying fuel.

    We've seen some R53's running at near 80% duty cycle with the 380cc with just a cam, header, 15% pulley; we know this b/c we put the scan tool to monitor the real-time values of the motor while it's being tuned. With the 550cc, it's much safer still with lots of head room left.

    We believe that it's better to have a little extra spare than not have enough when it comes to fuel... some may disagree or find it hard to believe, but the results speak for themselves.

    FAQ:
    1) Why they ONLY recommend the JCW 380cc back in the days (The Time before MYNES)?
    Answer: One of the main reasons why they only recommended 380cc back in the days was b/c there wasn't much of a choice out there. Also, the tuners at that time can scale the 380cc injectors b/c they simply copy the tables from the JCW rom, but if they are not able to scale the 440, let alone the 550s. With some tuners, they simply adjust the entire fuel map to 'compensate' for the larger injectors.

    2) Why did people start using the 550cc all of a sudden?
    Answer: We started out testing the larger injectors and found the 550cc to be optimal for a wide range of applications. From Stage I & II mods to E85 to turbo conversions, these Bosch OE 550s can handle the job.

    3) Will my car idle or run without getting a proper tune?
    Answer: Most likely NO. Your ecu needs to be scaled properly prior to starting your car on these new injectors. Unless you have a tuner who can tune this for you, it's not recommended for a self-installer. This is NOT a DIY job.

    4) Do these come with a warranty?
    Answer: Yes, these are backed by the factory 2-year warranty.

    5) How will these injectors affect my gas mileage?
    Answer: Believe it or not, a lot of our customers have reported increased gas mileage after installing these injectors (some customers have succumed to the 'lead-foot' syndrom so that really decrease the fuel economy).

    6) Do i get more power out of these injectors?
    Answer: They have a more precise spray pattern with 6 nozzles thus atomizes better; and from the tuning aspect, they are more precise and easier to control and are able to provide the fuel that your engine needs at higher RPM... which means your car is not starving for fuel thus it can run more smooth and make more power at the higher RPM range.

    7) What kind of power gains from these injectors?
    Answer: The typical WHP gain is around 4 to 5...

    Here is another angle of looking at it:
    = Stock injectors: 330cc...
    = JCW: 380cc (+50cc to compensate for the ~12% pulley and polished head)
    = 440cc (+60cc from JCW 380s to compensate for the 15% pulley, cam shaft, header, BVH)

    So is it reasonable to expect the add'l 60cc of injector flow to compensate for the smaller pulley, cam shaft, header and BVH? Those injectors are working really, really hard to keep up and it shows according to the GT1 tool.

    Feel free to chime in with your thoughts and questions.

    cheers.
    mike
     
  2. mike@MynesTuned

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    BUMP... good info those who are new to the forum... :)
     
  3. mike@MynesTuned

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    Getting ready for shipment :)

    IMAG0123.jpg
     
  4. Mr. Jim

    Mr. Jim Mudshark
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  5. PGT

    PGT Wheel Whore

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    do you grind off the part numbers like other vendors?
     
  6. mike@MynesTuned

    [email protected] New Member

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    Nope. We have nothing to hide. Customers will be able to see the part numbers clearly and can verify the actual OE size of our injectors.
     
  7. mike@MynesTuned

    [email protected] New Member

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    Does this look like the 440cc that's in your MINI?

    Does this look like the 440cc injectors in your MINI?

    Of course, you can only gauge it based solely on appearance b/c the numbers and markings are probably scratched off.

    photo.jpg
     
  8. PGT

    PGT Wheel Whore

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    its been a long time since I've seen mine :lol:
     
  9. mike@MynesTuned

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    #9 [email protected], Dec 21, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2010
    440s are NOT really 440cc ???

    So what is the TRUE SIZE of your injectors as it pertains to the R53's fuel pressure application? That's a question that you should ask your vendor and tuner.

    Based on the part number provided earlier on the so-called "440cc", we did some research and discover the following. We have placed this in a side-by-side comparison so we are comparing "apple-to-apple."


    Bosch OE 550cc "440cc" (SRT4)
    Manufacturer Bosch Siemens Deka
    Vendor Mynes The other guy
    Injector type High-Imp (saturated) High-Imp (saturated)
    Injector connector type EV6 (US-Car) EV6 (US-Car)
    Connector adapter need to fit R53 YES YES
    OE Application Ford Motorsport Mopar Stage 1/2; SRT-4
    Injector design EV14 (equivalent to Deka VII) Deka IV (equivlent to the older EV6 design)
    (newer injector design) (older injector design)
    Injector flow (at 43.5 psi or 3 bar) 500cc 500cc
    Injector flow (at 52.5 psi or 3.5 bar)* 550cc ???
    Injector flow (at 58.0 psi or 4 bar) 575cc 582cc


    *NOTE: Standard Fuel Pressure on MINI R53 is 3.5 bar (and MAX fuel pressure is 64 psi).
     
  10. mike@MynesTuned

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    UPDATE: Based on our research, there are two types of 440cc injectors being floated by the other guy and here is the info:

    The 1st Generation of 440cc are these (up until 2010):
    These are the Porsche GT3 injectors (OE by Bosch, Part # 0280156012). They are of the older EV6 Technology and have a flow rate of 430cc at 3 bar (or 43.5 psi fuel pressure). But we are unable to find any published specs on actual flow rate of these injectors at the R53's operating fuel pressure level of 3.5 bar (or 52.5 psi)... So the actual flow rate for the R53 application is another set of "???"..

    These injectors were sold to both the US and UK Customers as "440cc Injectors" with part numbers defaced. No pigtail connectors were needed for the R53 application as they have the EV1 connectors.
    440cc_Porsche.jpg 440cc_Porsche2.jpg

    430cc_Specs.gif

    Difference in appearance and technology between the EV1 / EV6 / EV14:

    Bosch_Injectors_Generations.gif 430cc_Specs2.gif
     
  11. AliceCooper

    AliceCooper Club Coordinator

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    So with your 550's, do we need a adapter for them to be used on R53's ? and do they interfere with IC at all ?
     
  12. Thumper460

    Thumper460 Active Member

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    OK.. I agree 100%. I feel the air amount ( CFM ) allowed into the engine is determined by the Head/ Cam/ pulley ect.. and I feel that when people talk to ME about injectors, I refer them to Mynes.

    Unlike installing a larger Carburetor ( yep.. those funny looking things) that also increases CFM to the engine, where you CAN go too big.. too much Air, the ECU controlling the inj. is a totally different animal!

    And when you can control the amount and when the fuel is injected... then there probably ISNT any TOO BIG!! Yes?? ( Ok there probably is.. just using the idea of a 950 Carb on a 5.0 litter eng vs a 750 !!)

    When the engine desires more fuel.. the ECU takes care of it!! ( and the air flow stays the same!)

    Just me.............................................

    Thumper
     
  13. btwdriver

    btwdriver New Member

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    I think that you can have such a thing as too large an injector. If your minimum open time on an injector delivers more fuel than required, the injector would be too large for the application. There is a definite minimum that the injector can be cycled and still deliver fuel. This is why you see dual injectors in smaller engines that have large turbos of super chargers. They fire one set of injectors at idle conditions when the fuel requirements are low and then once the turbo or supercharger(s) kick in and the fuel requirements ramp up, they fire both injectors to deliver the required fuel.
     
  14. minimark

    minimark Well-Known Member

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    Agree, perfect size is one that would be working somewhere towards the middle of it's operating ranges for your application.... Otherwise BMW, for cost effectiveness would just have one big injector that works on their highest output engines and merely scale them down for the lessor output applications....2 cents
     
  15. mike@MynesTuned

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    Yes. The 550s we sell comes complete with pigtail connector adapters and they do NOT interfere with the IC.

    Minimark, you should check with your tuner on this one... for the longest time, he has been knocking on these Bosch OE 550s that we have been using... guess what, he is now selling the SAME 550s to his customers :blush2:

    The old saying hold true: Don't knock it until you have tried it... We've been using these 550s since Feb 2009 and have been taking a "beating" from the other side ever since... And almost two years later, things have come full circle. LOL.

    At least he kept the part numbers intact this time so the customer can verify the actual size of the injectors :Thumbsup:
     
  16. minimark

    minimark Well-Known Member

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    My tuner as you refer, does not spec or use 550s for all applications... He uses the size injector that works best for the power output. Maybe you should call and ask. But everyone has a right to their opinion and in this case, my opinion is that you are wrong.... Which I have a right to have.

    Carry on.

    PS: Actually I'm getting a set of his 440s very soon because they will fit my upcoming output. So I will be having a set of JCW 380s for sale very soon.
     
  17. jason@MynesTuned

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    Too large for the MINI R53 on pump gas as I've tested is 950cc. But it all depends on the injector type and it's lag time as well. The OE Bosch 550cc that we use, actually can run at lower pulse width than the stock injector and the injector latency is faster than the stock R53 injector. We are running 750cc on our turbo R53 with -1.17 % long term trim and getting 23 mpg on a 490whp R53. On the green mini 550cc with -0.81% long term trim and recently passed emissions with flying colors.

    There is more to it in the software than just finding the injector scaling address, you have about 5 other values and tables to adjust and if that person can't adjust these.... anything over 450cc would be too big.
     
  18. mike@MynesTuned

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    If you take off your blinders and read the facts that are presented in my previous posts, you will see that the "440s" you are referring to are in fact bigger than the OE 550s that we use. Do you know if you are getting his "1st Gen" or the "2nd Gen" 440s?

    We have been accused of being in the 'wrong' for the last two years. But the fact that the competition has started selling the same 550s proves that we are very RIGHT :D
     
  19. minimark

    minimark Well-Known Member

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    LOL no blinders here, see results very clearly... ;)
     
  20. mike@MynesTuned

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    The results clearly shows those "440 SRT Injectors" (2nd-Gen) are rated 500cc at 3 bar; "unknown" at 3.5 bar (Standard R53 Fuel Pressure), and 582cc at 4 bar fuel pressure.

    Here is a better chart... maybe your beer goggle is still on? :beer

    Table_Injectors.gif
     

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