BIGGER is BETTER!!! A FAQ on the Bosch 550cc injectors for R53

My MINI has been off jack stands for several months in case somebody needed to go play at LaGuna Seca

WTF Mr N. I just drove my MINI yesterday? It has had more track time than impressions. I state again for clarity sake the average street MINIs do not sustain or have extended high rpms periods on tracks.
I suppose this needs to be clarified as to what extended means in relationship to the 1.6 MINI power plant?

Perhaps someone like Onasled Racing or Helix Motorsport, that actually have experience with a race MINI to post up here on my comment? I would whole heartily respect their experience to this stalemated issue I have created with some here on this thread.The weekend worriers perhaps like me(accordingly?) are not expert in this matter obviously by some? I can however as I am sure and with respect Nathan you are better capable of finding and providing several y-tubes of RACE MINIs on different tracks across the USA showing the speedometer and tachometer referencing different area of those tracks?

With a research in the above comments it becomes easy to understand that by using the stock or slightly larger injectors over the years has not caused cataclysmic issues.


DATA in this thread by MYNES clearly indicates the use of larger and quality fuel injector for the MINI a wise idea and in my onion a way to inexpensively add some performance and a Safeguard to the engine.


Definition of EXTENDED
1
: drawn out in length especially of time <an extended visit>
2
a : fully stretched out <an extended battle line>

 

I think there are some key points that we can all agree on without the bickering:

1) Mynes has provided proof (not just opinion or "trust me") that the stock injectors are sometimes working overtime under high rev / high load conditions.

2) Most of us can be characterized as "weekend warriors" that sometimes track their MINI and would probably never consider a stand alone or similar.

3) Installing larger injectors (with the appropriate scaling) provides safer conditions for the MINI under such high rev / high load conditions.

In my opinion, these points are indisputable. Now, the lack of actual anecdotes about catastrophic failures from this situation, while considering the amount of MINI owners with the mod cocktail that leads to the high duty cycle condition described, suggests that, at least up to know, the MINI engine and injectors have been able to handle this condition without much ado.

Of course, if and when we hear about any oem injector failure that falls within these conditions we can all say that we were warned.

Personally, I have only seen or read about aftermarket injectors fail and not OEM. (Never the Bosch that Mynes sells, btw) Considering other threads running around the interwebz about different MINI aftermarket injectors, I think that is not a topic that we want to introduce here.

I for one, basing my decision on the percentages of failure and the data presented, think that for my specific situation I feel fine running the JCW 380's with the oem cylinder head. If I ever install an aftermarket head, I would then go ahead and go with the larger injectors.

But what the hell do I know, since I don't run a stand alone and I have a huge learning curve to overcome.... seriously...

 

That's why I suggested including A/F in your dyno charts. If the "undersized" injector is still making target A/F the motor and performance will be fine.

 

says it all....

I think it says it alll......

No should a - could a - would a !! Just pure data!! Thanks Mynes!!

Y'all Rock!! No wonder you are the Number 1 Tuner in the US!! You Prove it!! Then POST it!!

Just me...........................

Thumper

 

Here is Data from Road Atlanta with 450 injectors.
This is coming down the back straight and here is my gearing...
Top Speed in 1 gear = 45.030 MPH
And changes into 2 gear at 4712 RPM dropping 2788 RPM
Top Speed in 2 gear = 71.670 MPH
And changes into 3 gear at 5639 RPM dropping 1861 RPM
Top Speed in 3 gear = 95.318 MPH
And changes into 4 gear at 6129 RPM dropping 1371 RPM
Top Speed in 4 gear = 116.631 MPH
And changes into 5 gear at 6196 RPM dropping 1304 RPM
Top Speed in 5 gear = 141.185 MPH
And changes into 6 gear at 6147 RPM dropping 1353 RPM
Top Speed in 6 gear = 172.272 MPH

which I think above numbers are slightly off because the GPS has the revlimiter in 2nd (7700 rpm) at 70.1 when I datalogged it on the GPS. But those numbers are within a couple percent.

So as you can see it never drops below 5600rpm for right at about 30 seconds coming down the back straight, A good portion of that is spent above the factory Rev limiter in 4th and 5th gear. This was with alcohol, and was in a limited hp class via NASA rules.
Not picking a bone, just introducing this as data.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiJB_4UYMb8[/ame]

 

So maybe this is a dumb question, but I've been following along with this thread for a while. I can see the benefits to larger injectors, but is there any downside? What if I put 550's in my mom's MCS that she drives to the grocery store and to the golf course? Why didn't MINI just spec larger injectors in the first place?

 

Thanks for the great information and link Ian!!

Not to take the thread off to far but wasn't that run in the middle of the summer in extreme heat?

 

You went 172 mph in a Mini? I didn't that was aerodynamically possible on a road course? I belive the ABF drag Mini went 170 but that's with a lot of HP behind it.

 

Those are just the theoretical top speeds in each gear.

 

Ian nice information thanks for posting up You clearly show an example from a MINI racers actual data what was struggling to make by explanation. Great video as well!!!


BThayer23 with out actually talking to the bean counters and the suppliers and the engineers one could only speculate. But remember BMW/MINI never felt this was going to be a "sports" (driven)car anyway.

In the beginning we never thought that making 250 whp was possible but now with all the aftermarket development over the years we are now possibly seeing 300+ on a M45 MCS ?? So why not bigger injectors to add to all this new power increases.

Nathan I believe that MYNES has a gear ration to engine speed Excel sheet that shows will show Ians data is close?

 

Where did I say I went 172mph? Those are the theoretical top speeds for 7700rpm on my tire size with my gearing. That is all. It's there to show RPM range per mph. I think the quickest we've seen in my car was mid to high 140's on a road course. But I haven't been on Daytona yet. I'm sure daytona will be in the low 160's.

I'd like to see Data on that car doing 170mph at Calclub because this is a buddy of mine in a F430 scuderia which has a LOT better aerodynamics (which makes a big difference at that kinda speed), no turbo lag on upshifts and Similar hp and it was only getting to high 150's (160 in the draft). Now granted He could push the ferrari a little harder.... I want to see the GPS data to believe a claim like that.

BTW, this ferrari went 5 seconds faster then I think the Turbo mini went. And the IF MPH was slower and IIRC it's on street tires then they'd have to have been WAY slower in the corners if they were up 10+ mph on the straight but 5 seconds slower. Someone heard someone wrong is my theory. But it sounds like a tall tail.


TURN YOUR SPEAKERS UP!!!!!! Fast Forward to 2nd lap, he goes REALLY boringly slow on the outlap.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3_Rmx3P7u4]YouTube - 2009 California Speedway Ferrari 430 Scuderia 2nd day[/ame]

 

My Data came from the Quaife Gear Calculator. Nitro, the topspeed in a gear can very greatly on tire size. I use the Quaife calculator on my Honda because I don't want to shift to 6th at the end of the straight in the honda so I use the gear calculator to figure the top of 5th and the predicted top speed at the track so I know which size tires to run that race weekend. The Mini is easy it has such a tall 5th even the shortest tire I put on it I'll rarely go to 6th gear You've gotta make north of 300whp to pass 140mph on most tracks around here (except daytona). The honda only does 128mph in 5th with the short tires and it's right close to that at east coast tracks. After talking with the guys at stoptech they said all the cars that destroy brakes are on the east coast, his theory is that the east coast tracks have longer straights and more braking zones.

 

opcorn:

 

Funny, I asked the same question in a PM, (to keep out of these threads and arguments) and they probably don't want me to post their reply!!!!

 

Go for it!

 

Odds are they did not spec a 550 injector from the factory because their simply is no need for a factory car.
Why add all that that capacity if you don't need it? Its only going to make the car more difficult to get to idle on the factory ecu.
Granted todays tuners have gotten their tuning down in such a way to circumvent the ecu in a way to make it work.
Even with my 450cc injectors i am just now at the limit of those injectors with probably the 1 percentile of what power most mini owners will ever have.
I guess the only downside to having mynes put the 550cc injectors into your car would be if the factory map got restored vs what they had programed in
And even in that case i can only hope they have way to get it back to the hopefully correct scaling in order to restore order to your car. outside of that, no real downside that i can see. The 550s are in-fact quality parts.
Nitro when Goaljinky said bigger is better he may not have been talking about injectors. :arf:

 

It wasn't a stupid question it goes to the heart of your thread... You say bigger is better, some of us just wanted to know why???? You mentioned most with a blown engine will not post it up. Probably true, but if you have had those same people coming to you for a new engine you could have just said so to back up your theory of playing Russian Roulette??? There has got to be more to just throwing in a larger injector and detuning/scaling it down to said engine.. All these street cars are running the stock ECU..
MINI,BMW and the other car manufactures have scores of engineers working for them. If you have figured out something that they haven't well my friend you need to patent it!!!

 

If a car has 380s as mine and it is already tuned; would (with no other changes to the car) installing 550 injectors by themselves and then a new tune make any more power?

....or would the only performance improvement be in a better power to weight ratio, achieved from reducing the mass of my wallet?

 

I think you have already accomplished that "mod"


Injectors being run full out are not consistent, and are more prone to failure. Almost all injectors have a "sweet spot" to achieve optimal performance, and everyone must also consider our gas is going to the side of terrible. As more Ethanol is added, the more fuel that is required to achieve the same performance.