Bimmer Lite: Aug 2009

Discussion in 'MINI' started by Steve, Jan 11, 2010.

  1. Steve

    Steve Administrator
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    #1 Steve, Jan 11, 2010
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  2. versus

    versus Active Member

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    :Thumbsup: Great read and knowledgeable, thanks for sharing the insight.
     
  3. Bimmer Lite

    Bimmer Lite New Member

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    Thanks for reading:)

    Haven't gone off track since then. Oddly enough, after that event, I found myself thinking about going off a lot less. As all of my friends who were there said to me, if that's the result of my first off, then I'll take it - no car damage except for some muddy tires.

    - Marc
     
  4. Redbeard

    Redbeard JCW: because fast is fun!
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    I enjoyed that article. I've seen the "Red Mist" appear out here at Spring Mountain.

    Glad to hear it hasn't deterred you from open tracking and that you, your instructor, and the Mini are all safe.
     
  5. cct1

    cct1 Well-Known Member
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    'Bout time you joined the agricultural excursion club...

    You know the two schools of thought--

    School #1: You can never know where the limit is until you pass it and spin.

    School #2: School number 1 is a bunch of hogwash, you don't need to spin to learn the
    limits.

    I used to be firmly in School #2, until I joined the agricultural excursion club. And while I recommend staying in school #2 if at all possible, there is nothing quite like a high speed spin to humble you, and bring you back down to earth regarding what you can and can't do on the track. I'm a better driver since spinning--I have a better feel for the car, when to ease up and not push as hard, and if I'm out of rythm on the track, I'll just come in and park it for the session, and take a breather until the next session--something I never would have done before. It's a tough way to learn, and I hope never to do it again, but it definitely was a valuable learning experience.
     
  6. Bimmer Lite

    Bimmer Lite New Member

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    Damn right. That's well said, sir. :Thumbsup:

    - Marc
     
  7. Dr Obnxs

    Dr Obnxs New Member

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    It ain't if...

    it's when...

    So, what did this event do to your thoughts about what to do with your car?

    Matt
     
  8. ScottinBend

    ScottinBend Space Cowboy
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    Man that brings back some great memories of my first off.

    Mine was a lot sooner than yours was tho, second track day and the second session of four....lol

    BUT, it was raining. Did some real nice tank slappers before the spin. Saved it 4 times before the rears hit the wet grass. I even got it on tape!

    Great read as always.
     
  9. Bimmer Lite

    Bimmer Lite New Member

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    Well, at the time of the "off," I was still abusing the stock suspension and Azenis tires. One of my instructor's comments to me in the paddock was, "Either back off or set up this car correctly. You need a roll bar and a real suspension." Well, I went with the suspension first. Perhaps a roll bar this season.

    As far as plans go: the car will stay as is - a street/track car that's properly prepared for both. It's NOT comfortable on the street anymore at all, but I still drive it. Just have to remember not to have any sort of open coffee at the time, or else it ends up on the headliner.

    I always have been a slow learner....:D

    Nice!

    Thanks a lot!:cornut:

    - Marc
     
  10. Crashton

    Crashton Club Coordinator

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    Nice read!

    I learned all about offs when I raced.

    Now when I am playing with the MINI at a track day I think back to those days of body repair & then dial it back a couple of notches. No one wins a track day, but one sure as hell can lose one.
     
  11. Steve

    Steve Administrator
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    Wise words. :yesnod:
     
  12. ScottinBend

    ScottinBend Space Cowboy
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    :Thumbsup:
     
  13. cct1

    cct1 Well-Known Member
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    Totally off topic, but I was thinking about this again this afternoon, and MINI drivers on the track really are a contradictory lot. On the one hand, IMHO we tend to be the most civilized drivers towards others on the track--with point bys and general track etiquette both on and off the track--but on the other hand, we tend to push our cars much harder than, say, someone out there with their Cayman S or Corvette (granted, these are slight over-generalizations, but if you look at the groups as a whole, it generally holds true, at least in Wisconsin). Maybe it's being judgmental and I'm pushing stereotypes, but there do seem to be differences in how people approach the track (at least at HPDE's) depending on what brand of car they're driving. The S2000 guys where I'm at seem to speak the MINI language. Most of the Porsche guys, and even many of the BMW guys, seem to be on a different wave length.

    MINI drivers present an interesting dichotomy--we tend not to do anything stupid when there are a group of cars together, but on the other hand, when not in traffic, we tend to push the car much more aggressively and near the edge than folks driving some of the other more expensive cars out there. Maybe it's because the car is relatively cheaper, or because the MINI has to be driven nearer to its limit than some of the other previously mentioned cars to hang in there; or maybe it's a personality quirk in MINI owners in general.

    This, of course, does not apply to the dragon, where all courtesy appears to go out the window...:D
     
  14. Bimmer Lite

    Bimmer Lite New Member

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    I think I see what you're trying to say. There are times when I feel like I can't possibly get another inch out of the car and/or my own ability on track. I also feel like that's an extension of the MINI giving me confidence to push and not "bite" me for doing so.

    As far as generalizations of other drivers, I don't see too many trends that would make be believe something about someone's ability just because of the car they drive. Well, except for Corvette people - they're the last to give the old point-by. hahaha.

    - Marc
     
  15. cct1

    cct1 Well-Known Member
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    #15 cct1, Jan 14, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2010
    It's a generalization; some of the best drivers out there drive Porsche's, but at your average HPDE, a substantial portion of people that own the really expensive cars don't really push them anywhere near the limit. The proportions go down a bit as you go up from beginner to advanced, but it's still noticeable if you take it as a group as a whole. There are always individuals in the Porsche or BMW group who are usually the best drivers in their group and drive the hell out of their cars, but those are the outliers--the majority don't tend to really push it as hard, at least not as hard as most MINI drivers.
    You bring up a good point--the MINI is very forgiving compared to many other cars out there, seems like we have a larger margin of error, maybe that's a big reason for the differences.

    It's not really a comment on ability so much as aggressiveness, which aren't always one and the same. The part that gets me is that when we get into traffic, these stereotypes flip flop--virtually all (actually all) MINI drivers I know are great with point bys, and are careful on how they come up behind and pass other cars on the track, even though they're pushing the car very, very hard (One of the chief instructors at our BMW chapter is drives a MINI, he's a classic example of that).

    On the other hand (and again, this is as a group, doesn't apply to everyone), guys driving the expensive cars tend not to push them as hard on the open track, but as soon as theirs traffic, that suddenly changes, sometime dramatically.

    It's one of the reasons I'm staying with my MINI rather than getting something more powerful and expensive; it's probably human nature that feeds what I wrote above, and I'd probably fall into the same traps.

    But one area I partially disagree with you is judging driving ability by the car you drive--for the guys racing and driving advanced, I agree, this generally (but not always) holds true. But at the lower levels, I think the opposite is true--a beginner out on the track in a high performance car, say a GT3 (and I've seen this more than once), is a scary proposition--it's like jumping from pee wee football directly to the pro's. And those guys seem to get more frustrated than guys out there in their civics and MINIs, the learning curve is so different depending on what you're driving. It's one thing if you have a GT3 and just want to take it once on the track just to play with it once in a controlled setting, I can totally understand that, but it's another when you buy the GT3 or Z6 or whatever for the purpose of taking it on the track consistently without ever driven anything else prior, and there seems to be a fair number of those out there.
     
  16. Dr Obnxs

    Dr Obnxs New Member

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    Consider

    that with many other higher power cars, you CANT drive them hard or you're wayyyyyy off the asphalt because of the power that they have. With the Mini (especially in stock form), you can almost drive it with the gas pedal as an on/off switch and with the stock understeer, it's rare (but not unheard of) to spin.

    Now, think about driving a car with lots more torque and more than twice the HP. It's a different world, you have to approach the limits much more conservatively because there's so much abillity to go over them with little thought or pedal travel. You can't use the gas pedal as a switch, or you fishtail out of every turn or just turn donuts. The cars have enough power that you can take a turn much less agressively, then hammer it when you're close to straight.

    Something to ponder....

    Matt
     
  17. cct1

    cct1 Well-Known Member
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    I agree with all of what you said. At the HPDE level, a number of people are on the track FOR THE FIRST TIME with the type of car you're describing. Like the analogy above, it's like going to the Pro's without ever playing before. These guys drive so conservatively, they're leaving a ton of the cars potential on the table.

    The more I think about it, the more I think this is why these cars get babied by a number of people, and never get driven anywhere near there limit. Again, it's a generalization, there are guys driving the wheels off their M3's, but the majority of them don't drive anywhere near 75% what the car is capable of--and allow people driving cars like the MINI to hang in there with them.
     
  18. Bimmer Lite

    Bimmer Lite New Member

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    Agreed on all counts - the MINI won't bite you unless you really misbehave. A 911? A 'vette? Even an M3? Those bite you right squarely in the butt.

    Until you figure out how to drive them, that is. Then, stock for stock, driver for driver, and there's no comparison.
     
  19. Dr Obnxs

    Dr Obnxs New Member

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    This reminds me

    of a time I was at a Nor-Cal Shelby event at Infineon. A rather aged man with a 427 Cobra was one of the slowest around the track. Every time he hit the gas when he wasn't going EXACTLY straight he'd just slide wildely about, so he just started braking REAL early, babying the turns, and not even hammering it when it was straight!

    I think that's probably the only time in history when a 427 Cobra gave a stock Mini a wave by! ;) Still, it took two laps for him to notice me... But still, he gave the wave...

    Matt
     
  20. Bimmer Lite

    Bimmer Lite New Member

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    There's a guy with a pristine 80s or 90s Ferrari who laps with us here in the NE; he doesn't push it like we do, that's for sure. And I don't blame him at all.
     

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