All that may be true, but what I see is bigger, heavier and more complicated (read: expensive)
All things a MINI is not supposed to be......
And this is where I see them making a big mistake with this brand, very few people buy a MINI for luxury - we buy it because it's fun! Because it handles. Because it goes, stops and turns like nothing else. Because it gives so much bang for the buck.
Adding 18 layers of luxury is the wrong way to go, IMHO. i-drive, power everything, all make it heavier and more complex.....
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Minidave Well-Known MemberLifetime Supporter
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BThayer23 Well-Known Member
This is how it works with every sports car. The first generation is light, nimble, and soulful. Then they give it more power, more gadgets, and more weight to match the heftier price tag. Finally it looks nothing like the original but still sells like hotcakes to the masses. The old timers, spec racers, and boy racer wannabes mourn the loss of the original and scour junkyards and craigslist for parts and clean examples.
See also: BMW 3 series, Mazda Miata, Porsche 911, VW GTI, etc. -
Minidave Well-Known MemberLifetime Supporter
Yep.....
And someone explain to me why the more you make of something, the more it costs (in today's automotive world), every other industry the more you make of a product, the less each costs.
See: food, electronics, etc, etc
MINI has built over 3 million MINIs, why does each successive one cost more than the last?
(Answer: because they can?)
If you really want to boost your volume, do what Henry did - every year the Model T got better and cost less! He sold millions of 'em, just here in the states! -
Metalman Well-Known MemberLifetime Supporter
- Sep 29, 2009
- 7,688
- Ex-Owner (Retired) of a custom metal fab company.
- Ratings:
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Ahhhh......
The selling price of something doesn't necessarily have anything to do with what it costs to make. -
Here's an interesting story...
when Sony first started to make Walkmans, the price was X. One big retail outlet asked what would it cost if they bought a lot more. The answer was about 2X... Sony had to make another factory!
Really, we can complain all we want about trends, but that is the nature of the beast. While we all say we want a sparten, light and nimble car, how many want hand crank windows? Seats without adjustable recline? No A/C?
While I agree with a lot of the sentiments, the 2nd gen was lighter than the first gen (by a very little bit)....
But what do we want? A Mini only chassis? A Mini only powerplant? If you do want these, the economies of scale don't work, there aren't enough units built. You can look at pretty much every other car company that sells inexpensive cars, and there is tons of chassis/powerplant/etc sharing to lower costs.
Anyway, the concept is sound, it's the execution of the details that will say whether it works for both the MINI and BMW markets.
Matt -
Crashton Club Coordinator
Can't wait for that 3 Cly BMW MINI.:frown2: Maybe at least it won't have a Peugeot lump under the bonnet.
It seems as though every new generation gets more gizmo's & plushness. Just like the R56 is softer than the R53 the next Gen will be softer still. All in the name of more sales. What price progress? -
Nothing against the R56 but 30 years from now if there is a beloved BMW MINI Classic it will be the first gens. A great little sports car built for the enthusiast in limited production before it's charactor was pasteurized out of it for mass consumption ...... -
goaljnky New Member
On a different note, how many BMW affectionadoes are looking forward to a FWD BMW?
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leicaguy New Member
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***** all one wants...
BMW has to do something about thier fleet MPG numbers. And they have to do something to get people into the cars at a lower price point early on in the brand association game. A new small BMW isn't aimed at the guys who buy a 7 series or an M3, it's aimed at the college grad and also as a MPG counter to those monster engines in the larger cars.
The one series has a nice driving dynamic, but it's really more of a 4 year old 3 series coupe than a seriously smaller car.
The buzz is that the new small BMW may not come to the US, and that I can totally understand! Heck, full sized pickup sales are INCREASING here in the land of no short term or long term memory. Over in Europe, the path for increased emissions regulation and high fuel costs are a bit more obvious, as is BMWs willingness to sell cars that are more entry level than here.
So, let's say MINI doesn't share chassis with other BMWs. Let's say they go thier own way in power plant production as well. What are you left with? Something like the car we have now, at an even higher price point. This isn't a big winner in the marketplace as the competition provides more HP, good handling, and real gauges in the car. Personally, I don't care that much about if the suspension is a bit softer or not in the next car, if I'm serious about handling the stock tires, wheels and a good bit of the suspension goes in the scrap heap, just like what I did with my 2002.
I'm a car guy who likes MINIs. But that said, other cars are catching my eye more and more. To keep me in the fold with new cars, MINI has to provide more value per dollar than the current trajectory is aiming at. How do they do this if technology sharing isn't allowed? I'll be damned if I can figure it out.
Matt -
ScottinBend Space CowboySupporting Member
But it seems like BMW/MINI is more interested in getting new customers vs trying to hold on to the original owners. Unless things change drastically in their design, I will not be buying another new MINI. They screwed up with the R56 and haven't looked back.
Bigger, fatter, and more"Connected" gizmos are not for me. -
You don't have to buy Mini Connected
and as an owner of both an 02 and an 08, the only two real complaints I have are the screwed up center stack on the new cars, and the fact that the heater core is never cool, so it's hard to get cool air out of the system without the A/C on.
The Prince engine is a gem, that's for sure.
I'm not sure that it's a fair charecterization to say that they don't care about keeping the first gen purchasers. A lot of them are the ones that complained about ride roughness in the first place. That's why the Sport Suspension got softened in 2002. The second gen is a bit lighter (a good thing that many forget about), the dampers have more travel (another good thing that many forget about), and the car is faster around a track than the 1st gen. I'd say a fair reading is that some of the changes weren't to the liking of some first gen owner, but were to the liking of other first gen owners. Any changes will annoy some, that's just the nature of change.
But what is true is that if the 2nd gen had never come out, and we still had the tritec, then the brand would have been doomed. The tritec, while good in some respects, is a dirty little engine and won't cut it in the emmissions world that is coming (or is here) in pretty much all developed nations. So, what would one have them do? Car companies are like sharks, they go forward or die. How should MINI go forward in a way that keeps the original adopters happy and grows the brand?
Porsche-philes often bemone the chyanne, but it pays the bills to keep all the flavors of 911 coming. What's so wrong with MINI doing something of the same to come out with cars that have wider mass appeal so that they can keep making a two door coupe that isn't a large enough volume seller to sustain a brand?
While I do hear a bunch of complaints about how the changes don't suit some of the current owners (and I'm not saying these compaints don't have merit, they do as people who have paid for cars in the past are voicing that they may not in the future), I see very little in sugestions of a realistic approach that will keep those disaffected happy as well as help ensure that the brand is viable.
Aren't the "twins" an attempt to give those that want more sport what they want? Can't a good set of coil overs return most of the feel of the 1st gen to the second gen? Or is it just that he wheel gaps are so huge than no amount of effort can save the car?
Matt -
Rixter Well-Known Member
Here in Canada we our completely ripped off with the pricing of the car and the OEM parts. My local dealer is good, but BMW/MINI in North America seems to be really lacking when it comes to some quality issues and doing the 'right thing' for the customer. :mad5:
If people are willing to buy a 'premium' car, as BMW likes to refer to the MINI, then we deserve premium support from them when there are issues. -
Go look at low volume producers that are profitable
and they are all really high dollar cars. As the price of the car drops, it takes more and more units to pay for the cost of running a car company. Even the big boys leverage chassis/powertrain sharing. So if MINI, at already a problematic price point, especially when well optioned" wants to make money and grow, I don't see how it can happen without technology sharing.
Matt -
Metalman Well-Known MemberLifetime Supporter
- Sep 29, 2009
- 7,688
- Ex-Owner (Retired) of a custom metal fab company.
- Ratings:
- +7,960 / 1 / -0
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I've often wondered about that...
BMW has a much higher average price point, so throwing in things like free service and the like isn't a huge hit.
But MINIs start at $20k.... Free service costs a bit more.... I guess that's why the mileage counter is so conservative in the MINI, and you only really get two services now when one used to get three.
But really, it doesn't matter the price point of the product, good customer service is just good business, free service or paid.
Matt -
Minidave Well-Known MemberLifetime Supporter
the heater core is never cool, so it's hard to get cool air out of the system without the A/C on.
Yeah, why is that?
It's annoying, that's for sure! When I drive with the windows down I make sure the fan is off to keep the heated air off my legs or face.
If the windows are up, unless it's really cool outside, the A/C has to be on.
One way to grow the brand is exactly what they're doing, offering a whole bunch of body styles on the same platform - the only one that isn't is the newest one, built in a separate plant - but that platform will be used in the BMW empire, I'll bet - they wouldn't do an entire platform for only one car.
Still, the price has risen steadily, and at some point the competition will be making serious inroads - both because there will BE competition and the fact that other's cars are getting better - I want to continue with the MINI brand, but I'm back to buying used ones at this point, and as they get even more expensive, where are those used cars going to come from? The new MINI market cannot continue it's unrelenting march upscale, at some point people will begin to balk - I think they already have.... -
I think
that they must have figured that saving a blend valve was OK cause they did all their testing in England! Really, that's the thing that bugs me the most in the car. When I'm shuttling the kids in the Clubbie, the kids complain about the wind, and when I close the windows I cook! This is when it's about 70 outside! Dumb dumb dumb....
The latest JCW didn't do good numbers. A lot goes into this, part being the price and what the competition is offering as well. The clubbie we bought was a "stripper" at just over $22k, and our friends got a Honda Fit at $17k. I think they got the better value, while we have a car we like more, that's a heafty price premium.
So given that MINI is getting expensive, what are they to do to keep prices in check?
Matt
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