1st Gen Camshafts..

Discussion in 'Tuning and Performance' started by Thumper460, Apr 6, 2019.

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  1. Thumper460

    Thumper460 Active Member

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    There are a few new cams for the Gen 1 MINI Coopers. They are great for the r50-r52-r53 . Smooth idle . Good low to 6500 + rpm levels. New Cores, not regrinds. Bolt in a go !
     
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  2. Whine not Walnuts

    Whine not Walnuts Active Member
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    #2 Whine not Walnuts, Jun 4, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2019
    I have Thumper's TP408 but just got his V2. Changing the springs out as the V2 has some really high lifts, enough so that I will put lash caps under the exhaust rocker arms as the cam was designed so that it did not hit the plug tubes. Stiffer springs are needed to handle the extra spring compression from the taller lobes.

    The 408 is one step up from the 405. The 405 has a lower torque curve but just cannot match the power of the 408 once you get over 3k. Will see if the V2 to 408 power increase is better than the 408 to 405.

    SAM_1691.JPG

    SAM_1693.JPG
     
  3. Thumper460

    Thumper460 Active Member

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    Your results should help the subscribers to MA with camshaft selections. We have mild to wild Cams. Drop in smooth idle and power to stock red line or modified red line. Or where ever you like to go. Stock cylinder Head- Ported TPR1 Head- TPR2 Head and the TPR2r Heads.
    On our Racing Profiles ( V0 - V2 - V3 ) we decided to work WITH the limitations of the exhaust lobe and the spark plug tube, by having the lobe cut to an exact measure and then adding the lash cap to maintain the correct Lifter Pre-load. So we can have a .390" ( 9.90mm ) exhaust lift at the Valve and NO Spark Plug tube interference . Wooooo.... Hoooo... Big cams rock !
     
  4. Whine not Walnuts

    Whine not Walnuts Active Member
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    Mike Pinson is a well known West Coast MINI Owner and Driver. His comments on Thumper's 408 and VO cams were as follows:

    The Engine is a 1.6L inline 4 cylinder. The idle run's @ 1450 RPM for the TPRV0, The Idle run's @ 1100 RPM for the TRP408. ( Cams are not tuned yet ) Head is TPR2r / matched Ported I/M (Highly Modified).
    Piston are MTO CP Carrillo 9 1/2 to 1.
    Boost is 26 lbs on TPRV0 and 22 lbs on TPR408.
    Header Highly Modified by MP
    Exhaust Built by MP.
    CAI Sprintex Supercharge with Modified with GP inter cooler and modified M7 cold air box.
    Pulley 60 MM = 26 LBS OVER 3000 RPM
    injector 660 Blue Printed to 600.

    In 6 gear both Cams pulls hard. What I'm saying, on the freeway @ 60 mph and you need to pass. Don't worry and don't down shift. Just floor It put! It puts you back in the seat. The TPRV 0 Is a little MORE than the TPR 408.

    Try to launch @ 3000 RPM and it is over in 1st. or 2nd and most of the times 3rd, and my Hoosier R7 and you just have smoke.

    Now here is the different. In auto X short tight corners you want the TPR 408. in longer not so tight Tracks you want the TPR-V0. The 408 power comes in a little sooner and not quite so hard. The "TPRV 0 is a Monster."

    And the cam is the most powerful I have had in the car as of yet.

    I'm running it right now @ SCCA auto cross, Big Willow. Street of Willow, and were going to Bonneville.
    I would say the TPR-V0 is about 20% more than the TPR408.

    Mike (SilverFox) Pinson
    SCCA
    SCMM
    SMC
    55+ years of Racing


    The VO has similar lifts and durations to the V2 but the V2 has a lower ICL so that power is built quicker in a short track or street condition. It was these comments by Mike Pinson that got me to buy the V2.
     
  5. BlwnAway

    BlwnAway Well-Known Member

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    A few quick little tips for anyone who has never worked with lash caps before:

    1.Do not forget to plug your oil galleries while the rocker cover is off, at least until the rocker shafts are tightened. Lash Caps are small.

    2. Have a small magnetic pickup tool and pick, in with your job tools.

    3. Place a small amount of grease or assembly lube in the cup of the Cap prior to placement on the valve stem. It will help hold it in place during rocker arm alignment.
     
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  6. Whine not Walnuts

    Whine not Walnuts Active Member
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    #6 Whine not Walnuts, Jun 6, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2019
    The "V" cams have the lift and duration for more than 8000 revs and any head that is rated for 8000 will not need a stiffer spring change out.

    I don't track my car and my Thumper TPR2 head is an "intermediate" valve head rated for 7500 rpms. I have chosen not to go the 8k route, one for the impact on the engine although there are numerous Gen1's doing so without issue, and two, I am running higher boosts that in turn bring on higher IATs. The TRP2 also has different valves so 8000 rpms are not suggested.

    I chose the intermediate head for how I drive my car. I will hit the rev limiter in first but up until the time I started logging for my tune I never hit the limiter in 2nd let alone 3rd. In second at 7500 the car is going a little over 65 and in 3rd a little over 95. Although I see 65 on street driving, I don't need to hit 95 to have fun with the car. I just don't see the need for the extra 500 rpms and the result is that the head costs less, which leaves money for other things, one being something as this V2 cam that is more expensive than the normal "modified" cam grind.
     
  7. Whine not Walnuts

    Whine not Walnuts Active Member
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    In some instances, springs are an essential portion of a more aggressive cam installation. In the picture below the spring on the right, the taller one, is made for high lift cams and is what Thumper puts on his TPR2-R big valve head. The shorter one on the left is the spring from my TPR2 intermediate valve head. I am in the process of changing out these shorter springs and installing the taller.

    I also used some 400 grit valve compound and reseated all my valves. SAM_1696.JPG
     
  8. Thumper460

    Thumper460 Active Member

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    Good ole 'Pac Racing Conical ' Springs. Smaller at the top than the base.. saves weight. Throw in a 'titanium' retainer which saves more weight ( also stronger ) and then you can 'get some '!!
     
  9. Whine not Walnuts

    Whine not Walnuts Active Member
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    So I got the cam installed and car started right up. The V2 is a very aggressive grind, enough so that I needed to put lash caps on the exhaust valves to take full advantage of the .390 exhaust valve lift. Some even say that a cam this aggressive requires a Vi-PEC ECU but I do have it idling at around 1250 (it will idle lower but wants to stall on pedal lift) and I am playing with the "Tip-in", RPM vs Pedal Angle and low rev fuel settings.

    Once you get up over 2500 I can get wheel spin in 1st all the way up to shifting into 2nd.
     
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  10. myles2go

    myles2go Active Member

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    This is a load of BS. You don't need lash caps because of the the "very aggressive grind"! The lash caps are needed to make up for the small base circle. The RMW street cam has .396 lift and doesn't require lash caps or dinging the tubes!
     
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  11. Thumper460

    Thumper460 Active Member

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    Myles, let me help you with this camshaft 'BS' as you like to say. cool?
    'very aggressive grind' is a camshaft profile to help people decide on the level of the camshaft.
    Now the "BS".. the Spark Plug tube is a restriction on the Head. This is a known fact. The Schrick Camshaft has a .352" exhaust lift. Schrick themselves say you might /will need to clearance ( ding ) that tube for clearance. Again that is .352 " lift !! Got that ??
     
  12. Thumper460

    Thumper460 Active Member

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    #12 Thumper460, Jun 12, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
    So Myles, as your training goes... you, however will have to READ up on 'Lifter Pre-load' and what it does and how it works. Google - Lifter Pre-load
    As we go.. the base circle on the BMW MINI camshaft is on a 1.180 ", the exhaust rocker ratio is 1.44:1 .This will keep the lifter Pre-load correct for max efficiency. And design of the lifter. Schrick knows this. as well as other cam grinders. The one way to 'PHYSICALLY' get more exhaust lift ( over .352 ) is you have to make the exhaust lobe smaller for the add'l exhaust lift. ( google camshaft base circles).. are you still with me here ?? IF there is a exhaust lift over .352-.355 " the base circle is cut to a point the it increases the distance and thus will change Pre-load and rocker ratio . Using the name you did.... My aggressive STREET cams also use a smaller base circle to get the exhaust lift. But NOT our Racing Camshafts.
     
  13. Thumper460

    Thumper460 Active Member

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    What we did here at Thumper Performance was work WITH the restrictions, lobe / spark plug tube clearance.
    50 years of building Race cars and engines, the ONLY way for more lift than .352 lift and MISS the spark plug tube, and keeping the lifter pre-load for track and high rpm was to cut the base circle on the exhaust lobe to a certain spec, and then use the Lash cap to bring the rocker geometry back ( Old school Lash caps/ Wear caps). On our aggressive bad ass street cams, the spec is more forgiving... BUT a car on the track wants and needs Different set of parameters. Following me ??
    The V2 camshaft has a .390" lift at the Valve.. Lifter Pre-load is correct ( BMW spec) and you CAN NOT get that lift UNLESS you do it the way we do. LOL or Ding the tube !! LOL
     
  14. myles2go

    myles2go Active Member

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    Yes, thank you for making my point for me! The lash caps are needed because the base circle is smaller.
    Please note: camshaft lift is measured at the camshaft, top of the lobe to the base circle.
     
  15. Thumper460

    Thumper460 Active Member

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    LOL.. you need to get smart here. Seems that you tend to get lost too easy. Why do I have the base on the racing camshaft undercut to a certain spec ?? Why do I use the lash cap on those exhaust lobes.. I believe I said this is WHY we use them. You also said:! The lash caps are needed to make up for the small base circle. The RMW street cam has .396 lift and doesn't require lash caps or dinging the tubes!.. I explained that the .396 exhaust lift HAS a smaller base circle and thus will mess up the lifter pre-load/ rocker geometry and he doesnt use the lash caps. . On our aggressive bad ass street cams, the spec is more forgiving... BUT a car on the track wants and needs Different set of parameters. Following me ?? the V2 , the story here on this thread, is one of our racing camshaft. Read this stuff and stop trying to show off !! You only have half the info..anyways... TPR.
     
  16. Dave.0

    Dave.0 Helix & RMW Powered
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    Myles, give up on trying to teach Thumper anything. Go over to Unfiltered and read the BS thread on thumpers stuff.

    He sold a brand new hand ported head to Richard that had leaking valves. Posting any real news about thumpers stuff is a waste of time on M/A
     
  17. MCS02

    MCS02 Moderator
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    Real news is welcome and good debate is also welcome.

    I want to let this thread go and allow debate but it must be factual and respectful. Several post sound condescending. We are adults and have plenty of experience working on and modding cars. No one needs to be schooled.

    Have fun and remember if you can't stand the heat stay out of the kitchen

    Your MA Mom!
     
  18. Dave.0

    Dave.0 Helix & RMW Powered
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    Lee, I have not commented in this thread for good reason and I just wanted my good friend Myles to not waste his time.

    Charlie and Thumper.can have the thread all to themselves again because no one cares.
     
  19. Thumper460

    Thumper460 Active Member

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    Myles and Dave.. You guys have missed the point made. The condensing probably was a bit over board. Let me try to put it this way. The original post was on MY camshaft needing to use a lash cap on the exhaust lobe. I went way over trying to show why this is done. And the opinions have not allowed the learning . Having an opinion is a good thing. Keeping it civil is another ( thank you MCS02 )
    I answer the question and then I get slammed for doing that as the 'opinions' take over. Back to the fact of my name being here..IF you have a exhaust cam lift larger than the .352" lift you have to have a smaller base circle( under 1.180" ) or the exhaust lobe will strike the spark plug tube ( ding the tube ) and the lifter pre-load and rocker arm geometry will not be as designed. That is NOT an OPINION that is " Impenetrability " !! Calling me names.... LOL just an OPINION ! Thumper
     
  20. Sully

    Sully Administrator
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    Agree 100%. The debate is good especially if it's respectful and with facts.

    Yea, @myles2go had a bit of an aggressive tone in his response. But in the end, fair question which you responded with some good information and a tone similar to his further feeding the fire. :Whistling:

    Not true, I do and I learned a few things. :Cigar:

    Again, agree 100%. Let's have a good debate on the facts, results and/or opinions. Everyone has different ways, perspectives and goals. Which is good.

    Let's leave personal attacks out of the equation. :Stig:
     

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