DeltaWing in 2012 LeMans

Discussion in 'Motorsports Chat & Race Preparation' started by rkw, Jun 12, 2011.

  1. Nathan

    Nathan Founder

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    Ask and ye shall receive

    Caption Contest - 1
     
  2. Steve

    Steve Administrator
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    Don Panoz claims they've learned that the thing "will pull way over 3Gs in a corner":

    DON PANOZ LOOKS AHEAD
     
  3. Steve

    Steve Administrator
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    "Nissan DeltaWing Tests at Sebring Reveal An Innovative Car with Conventional Details"

    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEd72aHuVlw]Nissan DeltaWing Tests at Sebring Reveal An Innovative Car with Conventional Details - YouTube[/ame]
     
  4. Redbeard

    Redbeard JCW: because fast is fun!
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    Man, it really sounds good whipping by the camera. That video showed more cornering speed than I had seen before and it didn't look like it was at it's limit either. Encouraging.
     
  5. Nathan

    Nathan Founder

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    Nice to see more corner speed. I feel good about this project and hope it works well.
     
  6. Minidave

    Minidave Well-Known Member
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    OK, one thing I'm trying to understand....they keep talking about how it weighs half of what the other cars do, but aren't there minimum weights set by the race organization for each class?

    I'm pretty sure Porsche, Audi and all the rest can build a featherweight car too, if allowed.
     
  7. rkw

    rkw Well-Known Member

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    They are below even F1 minimum weight (640 kg /1411 lb). For this particular race (LeMans), it is an experimental entry not in any class and not bound to a minimum weight. At some level they are activists trying to prove a point and hoping to influence car racing.

    I was thinking how the people developing this car must be having a great time. They are racing veterans who could say "been there, done that" and this is a rare opportunity to try something truly different.
     
  8. Steve

    Steve Administrator
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    For a number of reasons -- I don't know them all but weight limits are definitely on the list -- it doesn't qualify to run in any current class at Le Mans. It's true, if there were friendly weight classifications anyone could build a light car and run.

    The reason organizers are letting this one run outside class as a technology demonstrator is it's more than just a featherweight car. There are a number of differences in approach -- some of them pretty obvious -- the sum of which add up to something they were led to believe has potential to not only demonstrate prototype performance using half the fuel but also odd enough in design to attract attention and entertain and with an unconventional, seemingly illogical approach guaranteed to cause controversy and stir up even more interest.

    The Le Mans folks have been pushing for more alternative energy and green energy and hybrids and energy reduction overall for a few years now so it's no surprise that a claim of prototype performance on half the fuel made it to the top of the experimental technology demonstrator list. Throw in the oddness of it and it's sure to attract attention...and it has.
     
  9. Minidave

    Minidave Well-Known Member
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    OK, I guess my point is you don't have to have a pointy nose to get good mileage and go fast - but weighing half what the other cars do sure helps!

    I'm all for innovation and good design, what I guess I'm reacting to is Nissan touting this as such a leap forward, when what it really is is an exemption to the rules.......

    Give Audi, Porsche and the others the same weight limit and 4 cyl engine requirement and see what they come up with!

    I agree with RKW, racing a new design is always fun - just don't try to tell me it's better by hiding the real truth - it's the weight that's really making it efficient, not the nose.
     
  10. Nathan

    Nathan Founder

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    The nose doesn't hurt. The aero cross section is much smaller so it's less air to push away.

    With all the formulaic racing we have these days it sure is great to see something different being tried. We just have to filter out some of the Nissan PR Machine hype.
     
  11. Redbeard

    Redbeard JCW: because fast is fun!
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    Getting closer to this:

    [​IMG]



    Just sayin'... :D
     
  12. CarlB

    CarlB Active Member

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    The shape, not just weight, is a very big part of the Delta Wing project. The original intent for the design was an Indy Car. It was supposed to lap Indy with its long straits at comparable speeds to the existing car. Let’s see how fast it is at the end of the strait at LeMans. Power requirement goes up at the square of the speed. I think the thing is ugly, but I am cheering for the team. I have several pictures of race cars on my walls, they all were game changers. Racing is a monkey see monkey do sport for a lot of reasons. When Miller came up with a front wheel drive supercharged inline eight cylinder Indy car it changed racing. When Copper put the engines in the rear, he changed everything. When Chapman got rid of the tube frame he changed everything. When GM engineering and Jim Hall figured out the importance of the bottom of the car to traction, that changed everything. When Colin Chapman figured out how to improve on the GM, Chaparral work, he changed everything. The only thing we have done sense is data acquisition so we better understand how to implement what we have been doing. Today it is not easy being innovative in racing for a number of reasons, but the rules don’t allow big changes. If Red Bull wanted to build a similar car the F-1 rules or any other sanctioning body would not allow it. F-1 has spec tires. Have you seen the Delta wing tires?
     
  13. Minidave

    Minidave Well-Known Member
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    Yes, I've seen the tires....

    I also saw the tiny tires used on front of the UOP Shadow Can Am cars and the 4 front tires used on the Tyrell....

    My point is the same - the weight is the key here.

    Yes the aero plays a part, but my guess is not as big a part as people think.

    Here's where I'm coming from.....at one point they ran a current 917K Porsche against a NASCAR for top speed around Talledega. Everyone assumed the Porsche with it's small, low frontal area and swoopy looks and huge HP would run off and hide from the old tech pushrod, carburetted non turbo'd engined boxy old stockcar.

    Except it didn't, the NASCAR was faster......it ain't what you have, it's what you do with it.
     
  14. rkw

    rkw Well-Known Member

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    For DeltaWing, the shape is important because they halved the horsepower (only 300 hp) and need the aero to run at higher speeds.
     
  15. CarlB

    CarlB Active Member

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    We will have to see how fast it is at LeMans. The builders says that if you half the weight and half the drag you need half the power. Total weight affects acceleration. Where the weight is located, the amount of down force, are big influences on handling characteristics and grip. Weight is an issue on the cars performance, but aerodynamic drag is very important on race tracks like LeMans. The strait at LeMans is a mile long. To run competitive times it needs more than to be able to put the power down early off the corner and good acceleration. To achieve speeds similar to the prototypes they will have to have low drag.
     
  16. CarlB

    CarlB Active Member

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    What I remember was Mark Donohue going to Talladega because AJ had set a record there. I did not think a stock car had gone faster. Here is what I found.
    • March 24, 1970: Buddy Baker, driving the Chrysler Engineering #88 Dodge Charger Daytona, officially becomes the first driver in NASCAR history to break the 200 mph barrier by turning a lap of 200.447 mph (322.588 km/h). This was also a World Record at the time for any vehicle on a closed course. It was achieved using official NASCAR Scoring and Timing equipment.
    • August, 1974: A.J. Foyt tests an Indy car at a speed of 217.854 mph (350.602 km/h).
    • August 9, 1975: Mark Donohue sets a closed-course world record in a Porsche 917-30 at 221.160 mph. It would stand as a world record for four years, and as a United States record until 1986.
    • April 30, 1987: Bill Elliott sets the all-time NASCAR qualifying record, winning the pole for the Winston 500 at a speed of 212.809 mph (342.483 km/h) (44.998 seconds). The record still stands due strictly to the use of the carburetor restrictor plate, mandated after the 1987 season.
    • November 1986: Rick Mears broke the US closed course record at Michigan in a Indy Car with a speed of 233.934.
    Drag goes up at the square of the speed.
     
  17. minimark

    minimark Well-Known Member

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    Actually in a Road & Track comparison for a cover story back in the 80s at the Ohio Transportation Research Center, Tim Richmond in his Winston Cup Folger's Monte Carlo ran 240mph besting the 220 mph speed that Al Holbert's Porsche GTP could manage.

    The Monte Carlo was a brick, but a very aero dynamic brick, where as the Porsche was held back by too much downforce and it's resultant drag, even though it was lighter and more powerful.....
     
  18. Minidave

    Minidave Well-Known Member
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    That musta been the one I was thinking of - thanks!
     
  19. Johngo

    Johngo New Member
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    I wonder what the outcome would have been if ONE corner was input into the equation... :ihih:
     
  20. minimark

    minimark Well-Known Member

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    It was a top speed contest not about lap times but the track is a circuit not a straight line., albeit a large sweeping circuit. Worth noting that neither car was specially prepared for the contest other than simple stuff done on site such as taping up stuff. Both cars were both basically in racing spec.

    The results came as a surprise to most everyone... Lol
     

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