Engine Drivetrain 2nd Gen S Dual Mass Flywheel Hot Spots?

Discussion in 'Tuning and Performance' started by Systemlord, May 6, 2014.

  1. Systemlord

    Systemlord New Member

    Mar 28, 2013
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    Hello everyone,

    The reason for creating this thread was to understand how and what causes flywheel hot spots, I have only had the Mini for a year driving only 8000 miles thus far. I have no idea how the first owner drove the Mini. My MCS is at the dealer today because of an accident that happened 3 weeks ago, something hard hit my transmission case. My AAA insurance is covering the labor ($1900) and throwout bearing($?), however no insurance company or even an extended warranty will cover brakes, clutches as they are normal wear and tear items.

    The dealer recommended that I replace the clutch disk and pressure plate since the transmission if already off the Mini, on the other hand my flywheel is in bad shape with hot spots on its surface. So I gave the ok to go ahead and replace the flywheel, clutch disk and pressure plate. SA told me that the clutch fork are fine. Dealer told me that I had at least 50,000 miles left before the clutch needed replacement, that's why I went ahead and did it now. 100,000 miles isn't bad for a clutch though.

    Dealer initially wanted $1800 for the flywheel, clutch disk and pressure plate. I told them that genuine Mini parts are available on-line for a fraction of the quoted price. They called me back and gave me a much lower price, $1287, good enough!

    Any feedback greatly appreciated!
     
  2. Crashton

    Crashton Club Coordinator

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    The hot spots are there from the previous owner not knowing how to drive a manual. He got the clutch hot & more than once.

    You are being smart replacing the flywheel, clutch, pressure plate & throw out bearing while the transmission is off.
     
  3. Systemlord

    Systemlord New Member

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    #3 Systemlord, May 6, 2014
    Last edited: May 6, 2014
    What could the previous owner have done to cause the hot spots, hard acceleration or spirited driving?

    I wanted to get everything done (flywheel, clutch disk, pressure plate and throwout bearing) so I would never have a reason to pull the transmission again. I knew if I didn't do it now there would be a second time, at $1900 labor I think hell no. I asked the dealer to go ahead and replace the rear main seal and clutch fork, but they told me that wasn't necessary.
     
  4. CHKMINI

    CHKMINI Club Coordinator
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    One cause is downshifting without rev matching the engine.
     
  5. Systemlord

    Systemlord New Member

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    I have never used the clutch by downshifting to slow down any of my cars, it puts stress on the entire drivetrain. I'm always cautious when I'm about to downshift because the gear selected is no longer useful for that speed, when I get off the freeway I put it in neutral until such time I need to accelerate again. This is why I prefer to buy my cars new because you never really know what the previous owner did to the car, the important thing is the engine has great compression!

    155 psi across all cylinders + - 1-2 psi.
     
  6. Dave.0

    Dave.0 Helix & RMW Powered
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    Sitting on a hill at a stop with the clutch 1/2 engaged instead of using the brakes and knowing how to drive a stick from a dead stop on a hill. People that really know how drive stick don't need silly hill assist.


    That's my bet.
     
  7. Crashton

    Crashton Club Coordinator

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    I always use the gear box to slow the car down. Never killed a clutch doing it. I must not be using the correct clutch killing technique. Slipping the clutch kills them.

    Hand brake hill assist FTW.
     
  8. Systemlord

    Systemlord New Member

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    I love the hand brake hill assist, that has impressed every family member. My father taught me how to do it the right way. I do wish that Mini had created a clutch disk that's wider and thicker, more clutch surface area is a plus. Does the pressure plate and clutch disk heat up upon smooth engagement on hard acceleration? I figure if I'm shifting smoothly and driving hard that the clutch will last longer than an inexperienced shifter.
     
  9. Systemlord

    Systemlord New Member

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    Today was the day.

    Well I finally picked up my MCS today, boy did it need a clutch job. When I finished paying for the work I went to drive my Mini, put my foot on the clutch pedal and holy hell I thought the dealer screwed up the hydraulic system. Pushing in the clutch pedal was so easy I thought something was seriously wrong. I remember it requiring much more force to get the clutch pedal in, my leg would get cramped at a red light, no more.

    When I looked at my pressure plate, clutch disk and flywheel all three were super shiny! My clutch disk was worse on the flywheel side, my flywheel had cracked in many places do to the extreme heat. Just have a look! I mean what does one have to do to get a clutch to look like mine?

    I also notice that my old flywheel rocks back and forth in a tick-tock fashion, it definitely looks like it was designed this way but why? One other thing, today while in neutral while revving between 1000-3000 rpms I felt the flywheel as if it were unbalanced then correcting itself for a short split second, is this normal because I never felt this with my old flywheel?
     

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  10. Crashton

    Crashton Club Coordinator

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    Man that flywheel looks cooked but good! Crazy lots of heat did that. The clutch disc looks like it has some life left as far as wear, but it has been cooked too.

    At a red light do not sit there with the clutch held to the floor. That is hard on the trow out bearing. MINI uses a poor design. Put your car in neutral at lights. Your throw out bearing will thank you by having a long life.

    I'm happy the clutchectomy went well. :Thumbsup:
     
  11. Systemlord

    Systemlord New Member

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    So I'm understanding you correctly, the flywheel while burned is still considered good? The condition of the parts look bad, it still performed well. The clutch disk had material left, it had a lot less wear on the inner part of the disk and more wear on the edge of the disk, why? I was surprised to see the condition of the clutch parts because they performed better than they looked.

    Now that all my clutch components and flywheel are new how much life can I expect get out of it if I treat it well? Also is it considered alright to engage the clutch in a fast and hard manner when wanting 0-60?

    I'm also tearing off my Run Flats tomorrow and have ordered a set of 4 Michelin Pilot Super Sport tires (205/45/ZR17), I have never driven without run flats before.

    Sorry for all the questions.
     
  12. Crashton

    Crashton Club Coordinator

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    That flywheel is a large paper weight.

    How long does a clutch last, well that depends on you & how you use it. I'd say at a minimum 100,000 miles.

    I will engage my clutch hard on occasion, but mostly I treat it with kindness.
     
  13. Systemlord

    Systemlord New Member

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    I hear a stretching squeaking noise from under the transmission case. Clutch pedal is ten times easier to push in now so I don't understand why there is any noise coming from either the slave cylinder and/or clutch fork. It sounds like it's under more stress, it's like a stressful stretching sound but is quiet for the most part. Aren't the hydraulics under much less strain now?

    The dealer replaced that big plastic ball on the clutch fork, the fork was in good condition so they recommended not replacing it.

    Regards,
    Systemlord.
     
  14. Motoring Magic

    Motoring Magic New Member
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    Not sure how I missed this discussion when it started, sorry.

    The following clutch observations are my own opinions, after replacing at least 40 R56 and over a hundred R53 clutches over the past 7 years. I have taken excerpts from these discussions to make my answers/opinions flow more smoothly (I hope). The dual mass flywheel in an R56 is signifigantly different than an R53, although I hold both in serious contempt as a real POS design. Many manufacturers use dual mass flywheels these days to help idle NVH, but it is a crappy solution from a long term standpoint. I have yet to see anyone’s hold up to heavy stop and go traffic-you don’t have to abuse the car, just use the clutch a lot to wear out the flywheel.

    My AAA insurance is covering the labor ($1900) and throwout bearing($?), however no insurance company or even an extended warranty will cover brakes, clutches as they are normal wear and tear items.

    WOW-the $1050.00 we charge seems paltry in comparison! I have heard of dealers charging as much as 3500.00 labor for this repair!



    What could the previous owner have done to cause the hot spots, hard acceleration or spirited driving?


    The reason the flywheel has such bad hot spotting is it was rocking in/out when bolted to the crankshaft. This is nearly impossible to replicate off the car, but we have seen .250 in/out rock (that is ¼ of an inch!) while bolted to the crankshaft. This means when you are trying to move forward from a stop, the disc does not have an even surface to engage against-the spinning flywheel is also rocking slightly and as the disc touches the flywheel machined surface, the “high†spots that touch first see excessive heat, as the pressure plate clamps everything back into the engaged position
    I have beat one extended warranty company into replacing a flywheel in this condition, although it took hours of phone calls and photos and an independent inspection to convince them that the (covered) flywheel is what actually killed the clutch.

    put my foot on the clutch pedal and holy hell I thought the dealer screwed up the hydraulic system. Pushing in the clutch pedal was so easy I thought something was seriously wrong. I remember it requiring much more force to get the clutch pedal in, my leg would get cramped at a red light, no more.

    YEP that is how they are supposed to feel

    When I looked at my pressure plate, clutch disk and flywheel all three were super shiny! My clutch disk was worse on the flywheel side, my flywheel had cracked in many places do to the extreme heat. Just have a look! I mean what does one have to do to get a clutch to look like mine?

    Just drive the car in heavy traffic for about 40,000 miles-it will kill that pos flywheel every time

    I also notice that my old flywheel rocks back and forth in a tick-tock fashion, it definitely looks like it was designed this way but why?


    The CIRCULAR rocking is the design to counteract a normal 4 cylinder vibration that occurs naturally when 2 pistons are at BDC and two are at TDC, it cancels a small vibration.

    One other thing, today while in neutral while revving between 1000-3000 rpms I felt the flywheel as if it were unbalanced then correcting itself for a short split second, is this normal because I never felt this with my old flywheel?

    It is normal and exactly what I was stating above-don’t worry about it, you are being hyper-sensitive now

    I hear a stretching squeaking noise from under the transmission case. Clutch pedal is ten times easier to push in now so I don't understand why there is any noise coming from either the slave cylinder and/or clutch fork. It sounds like it's under more stress, it's like a stressful stretching sound but is quiet for the most part. Aren't the hydraulics under much less strain now?

    It is fine, don’t worry about it. The easier movement of the pressure plate fingers allows the slave cylinder to move more freely, under less stress. Assuming that is what you are hearing, it is a happy noise.

    The dealer replaced that big plastic ball on the clutch fork, the fork was in good condition so they recommended not ret.placing it.



    We have only seen 2 damaged forks over the years, one in an R50 and the other an R56 but it is rare.

    I automatically replace the dual mass crap with a solid flywheel in all cases, period. For an R56 we use:

    JM Turbo Coopers - Steel Clutch Change Kit Mini

    and for R53 we use the now common Valeo solid flywheel conversion. Both of these units give exceptional clutch feel and life, cost less than the OE components and are readily available.
     
  15. Systemlord

    Systemlord New Member

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    Wow $850 dollars savings, I'm finished with the dealer working on my Mini, I will not pay their labor prices any longer! So I could have gotten the single mass flywheel/clutch kit (JMTC Solid Steel Flywheel and Clutch Kit $967) installed for $2017? I think I'm going to be sick to my stomach! Motoring Magic the next time I have an issue whether it be a normal wear item or repair needed I'm driving up to you from Orange County, I'd rather drive or have it towed (AAA tows 200 miles ) up to Motoring Magic to have the work done.

    I wish I had all of this information you have giving me before my repair, you will be the first on my list for places to take my Mini for repair or maintenance this next time and I'm sure my insurance company would appreciate it as well.
     
  16. ZippyNH

    ZippyNH Well-Known Member

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    Quoted just to say WOW!! GREAT POST!! GREAT INFO!!
    A few more posts like that, and m/a will have to pay YOU!!
     

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