ECT and IATs at the track

Discussion in 'Track Days & HPDE's' started by mini_racer, Jun 1, 2010.

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  1. mini_racer

    mini_racer Well-Known Member

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    #1 mini_racer, Jun 1, 2010
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2010
    I pulled a little data from the ECU and wanted to share and compare. Is this consistent with what you are measuring on the track? BTW, this is from my 1st Gen R53 JCW car.

    [​IMG]

    Edit: added RPM to graph
    Some easy observations to make:
    ECT
    - Sitting on grid, or sitting still anywhere for that matter, maximizes ECT
    - It looks like the fans kicked on around 220F and dropped the temps to 210F
    - Drops like a rock when you finally start moving, no surprise
    - Dips way down to 190F at the beginning of the Warm-up lap as rpm is still relatively low, but plenty of air is flowing
    - Settles at around 200F for the entire Hot track session, very steady
    - Approaches my typical street driving temp of 194F moving through cool-down and exiting track to park
    - Starts to climb again after parked and sitting still
    IAT
    - Steadily cooks more and more while sitting still
    - Cools nicely during the relatively mild warm-up
    - Avg, or rather RMS temp continues to increase through entire session, starting around 150F (i.e. Ta + 65F) and ending around 170F (i.e. Ta + 85F). So, engine performance is just getting lower and lower with each lap.
    - Same story as with ECT for the cool-down, track exit, and parking

    Relevant Car details:
    - Water Wetter and about 30% OEM coolant
    - OEM thermostat
    - OEM IC with large after market scoop
    - Aero grill, yeah it is relevant as it definitely flows more air

    So, the Engine Coolant system seems to be working just fine and seems adequate. However, the Intercooler seems not quite good enough and a Meth kit or any other IAT lowering method would certainly help track performance. I am guessing the IATs would look much worse without the large hood scoop, this may even affect ECTs.

    Again, is this data and observations consistent with what you are seeing?
     
  2. Jan

    Jan Well-Known Member
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    why do you think we run methanol?
     
  3. mini_racer

    mini_racer Well-Known Member

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    #3 mini_racer, Jun 1, 2010
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2010
    I am going to go out on a limb here and guess that it is because of data that looks like this. ;)

    So, from your data collection and analysis, do you have anything to add to the above besides a Meth kit?
     
  4. works4me

    works4me New Member

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    Data analysis! Fun!

    The first thing I'd want to overlay is a speed graph. This will allow you to "normalize" the IAT's relative to what you're doing on track. Were you getting faster as the session progressed? Were you stuck in a train for part of the run?

    Also, we really need to know the hysteresis and resolution of the stock sensor to interpret this properly. One key thing I've learned is that the stock sensors are very purpose-selected (i.e. limited ranges, built-in smoothing, etc.).

    I'd suggest doing the same kind of logging on-street to better understand the overall behavior of the system.

    And I'll see if I can dig up some of my old logging data with my top-mount GRS to compare this to....


    My 2c
     
  5. mini_racer

    mini_racer Well-Known Member

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    Not sure if I have speed, I'll have to go and check the dataset. I do have rpm and was thinking about adding that parameter, but I know I do not have all parameters.

    Good question about trains as that can be a factor. However, this is pretty much open running. My fastest lap was somewhere in the middle, maybe third lap, after the tires were good and warm, but before the IATs climbed too high.

    I agree completely about the OEM purpose built sensors; However I expect them to be 'good enough' for a first order analysis.

    And yes I do have similar data pulls for some street driving. ECT is just as steady and centered around 194F as indicated. IATs are much more steady and obviously much lower.

    Please do dig up what you have and share. Thanks...............
     
  6. minimark

    minimark Well-Known Member

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    Just common sense that when your sitting still with the motor running and no airflow through the IC that IT's will rise as heat builds and the IC gets hotter. Same sort of thing happens when tracking, as the under hood temps grow the IC get's hotter as do the inlet temps. At least I haven't found any easily availabe IC solutions that make a signifigant difference over stock so the use of meth injection seems to be the best answer for the track to cool the air. Using Meth to do this is nothing new, it was first used to cool the temps in WW2 fighter aircraft when they didn't have at the time ICs for the turbocharged engines......


    Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk
     
  7. BlimeyCabrio

    BlimeyCabrio Oscar Goldman of MINIs
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    FWIW, I run a meth setup (not RMW- though I love theirs!) and spray just a bit for cooling... and it makes a HUGE difference on IATs. I haven't logged at the track - but watch the scangauge carefully. While I see temps similar to what you logged with the meth turned off at the track, I see max temps of 100-110-120 F with the meth on, spraying with the smallest nozzle, progressively from about 7psi-12psi boost, then wide open above that. While the injector pulse controlled systems (like RMW's) are more controllable (and tunable), for cooling, a little bit of meth can do a lot....

    On the street, when the meth kicks in, IATs drop below ambient temps... It's like driving in winter ambient temps all year round...
     
  8. Mrsideways

    Mrsideways New Member

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    I'm boarderline surprised your ECT's stayed around 200. Mine is very close to the edge of it's cooling capacity. Any hint of draft and she'll start to climb which says to me it's running at the max of it's capacity. I haven't data logged it yet (which I should, but I'm kinda afraid to see it).
    Your making no HP with the IAT's that high.
     
  9. mini_racer

    mini_racer Well-Known Member

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    Awesome!
     
  10. mini_racer

    mini_racer Well-Known Member

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    To be honest, I was really pleased to see ECTs staying at 200F on track. I am hoping the Aero grill and the huge after market hood scoop are making a difference.

    A little research indicates a 1% drop in HP with every ~11F of temp rise. It feels like a hell of a lot more than that though.
     
  11. mini_racer

    mini_racer Well-Known Member

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    Ok, I had a request or two to add RPM, so I just updated the graph including a Y2-axis with RPM. It is getting a little busy though.

    I also added a little more about track exit and parking, no surprises.
     
  12. Mrsideways

    Mrsideways New Member

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    Of note: I never had a cooling issue when running the Alcohol injection. I'm not sure how it relates but cooling the intake charge cooled the whole motor is my assumption.
     
  13. mini_racer

    mini_racer Well-Known Member

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    I definitely believe this is true. Every little bit of cooling helps the whole system. So having a huge scoop helps IATs primarily, but also helps ECTs. I would expect running a Meth system would help ECTs even more as it has an incredible benefit to IATs. I am sure there is also a very positive effect on oil temps.
     
  14. BlimeyCabrio

    BlimeyCabrio Oscar Goldman of MINIs
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    I spray what I suspect is a tiny amount of meth compared to what Jan uses with his system. It's almost entirely for cooling. I'm not tuned for it - and doubt I'm spraying enough to have a significant impact on either octane or fueling (though I haven't logged sufficient AFR data to confirm that). It's primarily intended as a slight performance enhancer and additional margin of safety when hammering the car. Because I'm not tuning to assume the presence of meth, i don't need failsafes and don't have to worry about killing the engine if I run out of meth or if the system fails.

    The progressive boost-controlled system I'm using is OK for this application (cooling, no meth-specific tune) - but is NOT the way to go if you want to tune for it, because it doesn't provide anywhere near the controllability of the RMW-style injector duty cycle based system with high speed valve, etc. So it's all a matter of what you want to get out of it. If you want your car to run like Ian's did last year... then you need Ian behind the wheel :lol: as well as an RMW-type setup and an appropriate tune.
     
  15. mini_racer

    mini_racer Well-Known Member

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    No arguments!
     
  16. mini_racer

    mini_racer Well-Known Member

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    Come on....... No one has any actual data to share and compare?
     
  17. Jan

    Jan Well-Known Member
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    we do.........but then I would have to kill you:aureola:
     
  18. mini_racer

    mini_racer Well-Known Member

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    I know you have data. And I guess I am not expecting you to share much. It looks like I have received about as much feedback as there is to get. A little disappointing, but… oh well.
     
  19. Jan

    Jan Well-Known Member
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    you have to understand 1 simple thing...........

    I have spent time and money developing a system that works better than the competitions.......showing them exactly how to do it isn't going to happen. We can all sit here and read about how my car made 10whp etc over and over with their meth kit but they have no track data. Big difference but as usual the devil is in the details.:Thumbsup:

    btw.......if you want to see it in action.......come to Sebring......bring your camera and umbrella..........
     
  20. works4me

    works4me New Member

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    FYI I was planning on contributing some more data/info to this thread, but I've been overloaded at work. I'll try to send it this weekend.

    IMHO I think a little more analysis/evaluation of the problem is in order before jumping to a particular solution. Yes, Meth definitely helps cool down whatever's there...but at the cost of considerable additional complexity.

    I cannot over-emphasize enough how important the K.I.S.S. Engineering principle is...and I say this from *extensive* personal experience :crazy:

    Besides, if you do cool things down a bit without the Meth, think how much better it'll be with it!

    My 2c
     

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