Most liked posts in thread: F1 - 2011

minimark · Oct 31, 2011

Just have to believe that Massa didn't do it intentionally because of the risk to his car too. Was it a mistake? Yes. But it shouldn't be a penalty.

goaljnky · Oct 31, 2011

minimark said: ↑

Just have to believe that Massa didn't do it intentionally because of the risk to his car too. Was it a mistake? Yes. But it shouldn't be a penalty.
Click to expand...

Only in a vacuum. I am sure their "rubbing" over the past few races and Massa approaching Hamilton in the pits (which has been widely replayed) playing into the stalwarts' interpretation of Massa's intent in that point in time.

Crashton · Oct 31, 2011

I was so glad to see Massa get a drive through. No I do not believe he did it intentionally just as I do not believe Lewis hit Massa intentionally in past events. Good hard racing by two drivers who do not like each other.

minimark · Oct 31, 2011

Exactly and should have been a no call.

Not a fan nor hater of either driver but they were racing hard, Massa probably shouldn't have turned in but on the other hand, Hamilton could have back out and made the pass at another time. It wasn't the last lap and neither were racing for a win after all..

No call.

Zapski · Oct 31, 2011

My first thought was "Oh for frak's sake! Again?" Initially I thought it was Hamilton's fault, but on subsequent viewings it just looked like one of those things. Normal racing incident, and I'm not sure the drive through was warranted.

Angib · Nov 1, 2011

And, as the conspiracy guys usually reckon Ferrari gets an advantage, how about the reverse - the former F1 driver included in the race stewards for India was a Brit, Johnny Herbert.....

More rationally, the stewards also get to see lots of stuff that no-one else does, like the data from the car's sensors, so they can tell if a driver behaved unusually, which may influence their decision.

But I agree with those above - racing incident between two guys with a red mist down.

Steve · Nov 1, 2011

Johnny Herbert's explanation:

Herbert: Massa deserved penalty (autosport.com)

Tue, 01 Nov 14:30:07 2011

Johny Herbert is adamant Felipe Massa deserved the penalty he got for his clash with Lewis Hamilton in the Indian Grand Prix.

Ferrari driver Massa was given a drive-through penalty for having made contact with Hamilton when the Briton was trying to overtake.

The Brazilian said after the race that he didn't understand why he had been penalised for that.

But Herbert, who acted as a steward in India, said Massa deserved the penalty, as he knew Hamilton was beside him but did not leave the Briton enough room.

"The decision to penalise Felipe Massa for his contact with Lewis Hamilton came down to one simple fact - it could have been avoided," Herbert wrote in his column for The National newspaper.

"I know Massa was upset by our decision, but I believe we made the right call. After looking at it from different camera angles and studying all the data available to us, it was clear that Massa knew where Hamilton was before he chose to turn across him.

"There was nothing Hamilton could have done to avoid it. He did try to get out of the move, but it was too late and the contact was made."

Herbert also said Hamilton was very upfront when he admitted he had made a mistake during practice on Friday, when he was given a three-place penalty for having ignore yellow flags.

"Hamilton was very upfront when he came to see us. He held his hands up and admitted that he had made a mistake," he added.

"Double yellow flags are a serious thing - they indicate danger ahead on track and are a warning for drivers to slow down.

Neither Hamilton or Sergio Perez did that. Safety is paramount in motorsport and double yellow flags must be respected - there could be marshals on the track dealing with the problem, and their work is dangerous enough without having cars fly past them at top speed."
Click to expand...

minimark · Nov 1, 2011

Oh the Hamster needed a wee bit of coddling after being spanked earlier......sweet.

Steve · Nov 1, 2011

I know this looks a bit like I'm trying to give a "how to beat a dead horse" demonstration, but here's an example of just how deep some will delve without even having the benefit of all the views and telemetry the stewards can access. (if you have the patience, there are a few good points in here as well)

Deconstructing Lewis Hamilton v Felipe Massa crash (news.bbc.co.uk)

By Mark Hughes
BBC F1 commentary box producer

There are signs that the worst of Lewis Hamilton's crisis in form has passed - despite yet another collision with Ferrari's Felipe Massa in an otherwise lacklustre Indian Grand Prix.

Six times now the two men have clashed this year: at Monaco in both practice and race, in Singapore qualifying and race, in Japan and now in India. Hamilton and Massa do seem to be magnetically attracted.

Massa is not the only driver Hamilton has come together with this year - Williams's Pastor Maldonado and his own McLaren team-mate Jenson Button can be added to the list.

But if the previous incidents seemed to betray a certain lack of judgement for Hamilton, Sunday's collision would appear to be a much more straightforward racing incident.

In fact, Massa ended up with the drive-through penalty on this occasion, even if not everyone agreed this was a just outcome. Some felt it was Hamilton's fault, others that it was simply hard racing.

The build-up came on the previous lap when, under pressure from Hamilton, Massa got out of shape at the exit of Turn Three, the slow corner onto the very long straight, making him vulnerable to the McLaren into Turn Four at the end of that straight.

Hamilton deployed his DRS overtaking aid wing and all of his Kers power-boost yet still could not quite make the move work, despite getting alongside the Ferrari at both Turns Four and Five.

Massa's Ferrari was running much lower downforce than team-mate Fernando Alonso's and was very quick down the straight, having clocked 199.7mph through the speed trap there in qualifying compared to 196.4mph for Hamilton (and 197.1mph for Alonso).

Hamilton had just found out that, with Massa using his own Kers to defend, not even the help of DRS gave enough of an advantage down that straight to allow him to pass.

So for the next lap, as Hamilton was again within the required one second of the Ferrari at the DRS trigger point, he had a plan to try something different.

He would use his DRS of course, but not all of his Kers, knowing that Massa would likely deploy all of his on that straight, thereby leaving the Ferrari driver without his power-boost on the short sprint between Turns Four and Five.

That is how the McLaren accelerated so much faster out of Four and moved alongside the Ferrari down that short straight.

But then Hamilton ran out of Kers, too, so the McLaren was no longer accelerating faster, deprived of the extra 80bhp.

At this point, realising Hamilton now had the inside line, Massa switched to the conventional racing line on the outside and braked as late as he judged possible - which on the clean and geometrically correct line was much later than Hamilton could brake on the dusty inside line.

Hence the McLaren was no longer fully alongside the Ferrari, but only partly so (Hamilton's right-front connected with Massa's left-rear as the Ferrari turned in).

It was the fact that Hamilton was no longer fully alongside that Massa felt justified in turning in.

What the stewards saw was a car coming down the inside faster, with the guy on the outside then moving further right, thereby apparently surrendering the corner - only to then turn in.

"They told me they penalised me because when I had moved to the outside, I was giving him the corner, then I changed my mind," said Massa.

"But it wasn't like this. I went to the outside so I could brake late because I knew that's where the grip was. I was not surrendering the corner - and Lewis was no longer alongside me. That's why I turned in."

Massa has a point. The McLaren was initially coming down the inside faster - but only because of Kers.

By the crucial time just before the braking zone, the two cars were travelling at much the same speed. Knowing he was going to be able to brake later, why should Massa have been surrendering the corner? It makes perfect sense that he was still fighting it.

It then comes down to the racing etiquette of when a car is far enough alongside you to have won the corner.

The unwritten rule used to be that if the guy was not in your peripheral vision by the turn-in point, you were perfectly entitled to treat him as if was not there - and that it was his business to yield as you then turned in.

Of course Massa knew Hamilton was there - he had been fully alongside him just a second or so earlier. But that does not necessarily mean that, with Hamilton no longer fully alongside, Massa was not entitled to claim the corner.

There is then a distinction between that and turning in knowing you were likely to collide.

If penalties are to be handed out then, yes, it was Massa who made the final move that made the collision inevitable - and, if that is the criteria, then fine.

But if that is the criteria, then the etiquette has changed over the years.

In the days before stewards could impose stop-go or drive-through penalties, a driver in Hamilton's position would have been perfectly entitled to have tried that move.

But he would then have no cause for complaint if Massa had effectively said: "No, you're not going to intimidate me out of the way with a half-move, one you haven't made stick by getting fully alongside. I'm going to turn in and you'd better get out the way. I'd rather have the accident than have you bully me out of the way in a move you haven't made work."

Under those terms, it would be OK for Hamilton to try it on, OK for Massa to refuse and the resultant accident would be just a racing incident, just what happens sometimes in the game.

Hamilton admitted afterwards that, as he realised Massa was not surrendering the turn, he tried to get out of the move. But it was too late.

It was also probably too late to have made it work by staying committed. They would just have had a slightly different accident had he done that.

So this was not so much a judgement error by Hamilton, more a misinterpretation of Massa's move - the same misinterpretation the stewards may have made. There is, therefore, every reason to believe that Hamilton's focus has returned.

"I've decided to get rid of everything in my life that detracts from my racing," he said on Saturday. "I've not been at my best this season and the team deserves better."

"His body language was much more positive this weekend than in the last couple of races," observed team boss Martin Whitmarsh.

Hamilton indeed seemed reflective and calm in India rather than troubled, as he had appeared in Korea two weeks before. There were even flashes of a genuine smile.

Which leaves just his yellow-flag incident in practice, something that cost him a three-place grid penalty, the very reason he was stuck behind Massa at all.

But that is just standard red-zone Hamilton, the emotion that produces the special moments as well as the occasional incidents, incidents unlike most of those this season that seemed to come from someone not in equilibrium.
Click to expand...

minimark · Nov 1, 2011

Simply put, it was just hard racing.

Both were using different tactics to gain or defend their position....problem occurred when those tactics brought them too the same point in space and time....

Steve · Nov 1, 2011

Apparently Williams need to use a 9th engine for Maldonado in the next race, he'll get the accompanying 10 place grid penalty. I think this is the first of the year for any team/driver (right?), not bad reliability given there are only 2 races left. Of course there would be 3 more to run if Bahrain hadn't been dropped...

I wonder how close the rest of the drivers are to the end of their 8-engine supply. I found a site that tracked this last year but can't find anything like it now.

Steve · Nov 8, 2011

For the rare few who like details here's a little pit stop trivia, courtesy of Mercedes GP.

2011 Season Pit Stop Analysis (mercedes-gp.com)

08.11.2011

The combination of DRS and Pirelli tyres has made 2011 a bumper year for Formula One, but not just in terms of on-track passing manoeuvres. The characteristics of the Pirelli tyres, designed to improve the racing, have also seen the total number of pit stops rise steeply - so far, there have been an average of 58 stops per race. Slick pit work has always been important in Formula One, but the frequency with which the pit crews have been in action this year has brought both speed and consistency to the fore.

How many pit stops have there been so far in the 2011 season?

There have been 1013 trips through the pits in the 17 races so far this season. Of these, 25 were accounted for by penalties - 21 drive-through and four stop-goâ€™s. This leaves the total number of pit stops in the 2011 season at 988.

Which races saw the most number of pit stops, and which the fewest?

The races with the most pit stops were Hungary (85), Turkey (80) and Spain (77). The fewest stops were made in Italy (35), Monaco (41) and Australia (44).

What has been the incidence of drive-through and stop-go penalties?

A total of 25 penalties have been served during the races this season: 21 drive-through penalties and four stop-go penalties. The stewards have imposed a total of 49 penalties during the season, including eight reprimands and two exclusions. The offence which has occurred most often is that of â€˜Causing a collisionâ€™, which has been penalised 12 times during the races.

How is pit stop speed measured?

Two separate factors can be evaluated when assessing pit stop speed: the â€˜wheel-stopâ€™ time, i.e. the time taken to change all four wheels from the point when the car reaches a standstill in the pits, and the total pit-lane time - i.e. the time between entering and leaving the speed-limited section of the pit lane. Teams measure wheel-stop times using in-house methods - and a stop below three seconds in race conditions is considered extremely competitive. The total pit-lane times are measured centrally, and therefore form the most reliable basis for comparison.

Who has recorded the fastest pit stops in 2011?

In 17 races, Red Bull has recorded the fastest individual stop on eight occasions. MERCEDES GP PETRONAS has done so seven times (including in three of the last four races), and McLaren and Ferrari once each. However, in order to build a complete picture of pit stop speed, the average pit stop time is more representative. The team calculates this using a method that discounts repair stops, which require different procedures and are not therefore â€˜cleanâ€™ tyre changes. Additionally, stops carried out under the safety car are ignored if pit lane traffic significantly affected performance.

Who has completed the fastest stops on average this season?

Red Bull set the fastest average time of the weekend nine times (Malaysia, Turkey, Spain, Canada, Europe, Hungary, Belgium, Italy, India). MERCEDES GP PETRONAS did so five times (China, Germany, Singapore, Japan, Korea). McLaren has twice been fastest (Australia and Britain) and Force India once (Monaco). In seventeen races, the fastest single stop and the fastest average stops have been set by the same team nine times. Using the average stop-time calculations, an overall league table can be drawn up, reflecting the consistency in speed of each team.

After 17 races, it stands as follows:

1= Red Bull Best
1= MERCEDES GP PETRONAS Best
3 McLaren + 0.3s
4 Force India + 0.4s
5 Ferrari + 0.5s
6 Renault + 0.9s
7 Williams + 1.1s
8= Lotus + 1.3s
8= Sauber + 1.3s
8= Toro Rosso + 1.3s
11 Virgin + 1.6s
12 HRT + 3.2s
Click to expand...

Minidave · Nov 8, 2011

In one race Big Mac did a 3.0 sec stop for the Hamster, Red Bull immediately did a 2.9 sec stop for Vettel! Tell me these crews aren't competetive too!

However, I find passing in the pits to be a real detriment to the actual racing, and I'd like to see them figure out a way to eliminate it's effects, getting rid of fueling and tire changes did it for a while....

I admit tho that in the past it was fun to see Michael do three or four blistering laps before he came in for his stop after the guy he was chasing pitted, and come back out ahead.....

However I still think the outcome of the race should be decided on the track, not in the pits.

Steve · Nov 8, 2011

I see there are two Americans so far on the list for this year's young driver test in Abu Dhabi. Alexander Rossi will drive for Team Lotus (Caterham) and Michael Lewis for Ferrari.

There's also a Canadian, Robert Wickens, who will drive twice, first Virgin and then Lotus Renault.

Steve · Nov 12, 2011

Did anyone else notice the latest unfortunate sign of the state of Williams? They have the last row on the grid locked up. Barrichello didn't run a single lap in quali and Maldonado qualified 17th but gets a 10-place grid penalty for having to use his 9th engine.

Sad. I guess you could say this last row business isn't really their fault and it's down to the reliability of their Cosworth engines...

Crashton · Nov 12, 2011

I can't see how Kimi will help things next year.

It is sad to see a once top team become an also ran.

Nathan · Nov 12, 2011

Hopefully the engine change will bring better results.

I think with with Kimi there is also cash from his personal sponsors.

Crashton · Nov 12, 2011

True Kimi has a lot of money behind him....

Even with fresh engines Williams is still toward the back....

Steve · Nov 12, 2011

You have to wonder why, if Kimi is interested, they haven't already signed him. He's expected to be a good driver still and a lot of F1 fans want him back plus he would likely attract media attention and therefore new sponsors...that is, if Williams can convince anyone they have real hope of rebounding back up the grid.

Trouble is, Kimi wants to be paid well. I read a couple places he's asking for $15M for a season. He may bring his own personal sponsors and attract other money but Williams need it all...and don't need another $15M bill to pay unless the increase more than makes up for it.

In a related note, I'm guessing that's also why they saved a fresh engine and cracked it open for Rubens to use in this particular race. Frank Williams has been working hard lately to pry open checkbooks in Abu Dhabi.

minimark · Nov 12, 2011

I'm a bit confused... Unless Kimi has some sponsors to bring with him that are willing to pay his salary and much more, what is the point? Considering Kimi hasn't exactly set the world on fire in other forms of racing and that his twindling ability to compete in F1 is the reason he isn't there in the first place, how is he worth a $15million salary to an already struggling team otherwise? His effervescent personality maybe?

Not trying to come down on Kimi but, huh?

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