Engine Drivetrain 1st Gen Cooper S Most liked posts in thread: Forge R53 intercooler (Brief Review)

I can't comment on the Forge specifically, but for the R53, over the years, we've done a boat load of testing on various intercoolers, including stock, stock with thermal coating, Helix/P&D prototype (never released because it didn't improve performance), DFIC, JCW GP, GRS. With the exception of the JCW GP and the coated stocker, none of the coolers had an average performace* that was better than stock. for R53s, don't believe the hype.

*Average performance is my conclusion of how the cooler performed in real road conditions. Several of the coolers could, for example, put down one dyno run that showed greater peak power than the stock, but it was not repeatable. Please note my comments about intercoolers on dynos here. BTW, the stock MCS cooler with a coating designed to improve heat transfer showed a repeatable lower intake air temperature relative to ambient: 1 degree C lower. There was no measured change of peak power.

 

As usual, Eric is spot-on. The people that immediately dismiss stock as inherently bad are not doing themselves any favors.

 

To answer some earlier questions, our work on the R53 FMIC was done at various times over a decade, and are not collated into one nice, neat report. The link I posted was for the R53 coolers as an example of the kind of tests and results we conduct on intercoolers. Oh, and cct1 is onto something with the W2A setup for the 53. We did some work on a car with the MINI Madness W2A cooler kit and the intake temps were very impressive. The car performed well (yes, you are seeing correctly, those are flying pigs: I've just spoken about a MINI Madness part that actually works and wasn't stolen from another vendor).

 

After talking with a bunch of people, and reading way too much on it, IMHO the FMIC is the best option for the track. W2A is better than a TMIC, but the FMIC maintains stable IAT's all day and recovers faster, there's no need to ice it (Or a TMIC for that matter) provided you have time between sessions. Just pop the hood, it'll recover fast. The W2A on the other hand, does great--for awhile, after which temps begin to climb, depending on the day. And it takes a long time to recover, unless you're exchanging the fluid--many people do this with ice/ice water, but it's something I don't really want to mess with. That, and the added complexity and potential things that can go wrong with it push me away from W2A. The FMIC is relatively simple, the only issue is finding space for it (and potential loss of boost).

But the FMIC costs me my air conditioner, a sacrifice I'm willing to make, but many understandably aren't.

I don't see people icing their TMIC after a session; they usually have enough time to recover. I do see people ice them BEFORE a session frequently.

 

Yes I have tried one, they are not effective. They heat soak terribly. Have lots of track experience with one. Moved to the GP unit, found it was a better unit.

 

Late to the party, but away from the drama...

There was one I/C with actual testing done that proved to be more efficient and recover from heatsoak faster than the GP cooler.
Everybody forgets about it, because they where in the $1400 range when they were released IIRC, and I have only ever seen ONE installed on a car.
DOS (Defenders Of Speed) offered a copper core top mount in late 2010, that was said to be the "end all" of R53 intercoolers.
I was in the loop about it MONTHS before word was leaked, and was offered to test a prototype, but I was deployed to Iraq at the time, and wouldn't return until after the official release.

The copper core while heavy compared to aluminum has a higher heat transfer rate, and they didnt stop there... The end tanks were bonded thermal plastic which is the same stuff they make intake manifolds out of nowadays. The bar and plate design had the internal sections pinched like the OEM coolers to direct flow through the core, and to not be a bottleneck like lower quality coolers. Then they thermal coated them for maximum results.
However, like I said they were around $1400 new, and now they are extremely rare! DOS turned into Defender Of Livingroom, and Clint in his infinite wisdom did not sell off the design unfortunately.

If I ever see one on the market, and I have the cash...

You brought up the direct flow coolers, and they are literally the worst thing you could think about doing! I have tried both the Alta, and the M7, both are and have always been garbage!
Admittedly, I do have an M7 on my R53 right now, until I find the time to build a fixed and fully enclosed diverter for the stock I/C, which is my only option since my hood no longer has the bracing in place to fit the stock plastic diverter top section.

Running a stock I/C with no diverter at all results in IAT's over 140• on a 60 degree day... BAD IDEA!

Meth is the best way to go, and has other benefits as well.

 

Theres a better way to cool it down after running some laps on the track...Park it in the paddock and slap a bag of ice on the I/C... Done!

 

^^^This.

This is my one and only concern with the big ass FMIC and the TVS. The TVS should push enough air for it not be too much of a loss, we'll find out soon. It's not an issue with the R53 turbo, or the Rotrex, I'm praying it won't be for the TVS.

 

Not sure what question you are referring to... but yes, heat transfer is a function of surface area and temperature differences. Wrt radiators and fins there is always a point at which you no longer get your money's worth in heat expenditure by increasing the surface area. Which is why most radiators are built to the dimensions they are.

 

In your first post, the IAT's were no better than stock. So if you are running it hard, when is it recovering? You've also thrown out there you have more Torque/boost with the Forge. This is the first time in recorded R53 history that this has actually happened (although it's been claimed many times). I don't think even the DOS guys made that claim; it's all been about maintaining what you have with cool temps rather than increasing power.

No offense, but I'm skeptical, placebo effects are strong, especially on a large mod. I'd have to see proof of this on a dyno--Forge versus OEM, same day, same conditions.

 

That's where I think many of us are skeptical. For the stock IC, most of us believe it's optimized for flow, or pretty damned close, there isn't much you can do about it with such a confined space, and you're still limited by the intercooler horns; many have tried different configurations, none have made more power. The function of the IC isn't increasing flow, it's passive--it's cooling. The supercharger is pushing the air, and there's only so much air it can push (especially compared to a turbo), if you have too much diameter in the tube, and the forced induction isn't pushing more air, pressure drops and you lose boost, and power, even if it's cooler air. I get the part about cooler air being more dense, that's where cooling helps you. But I have a hard time believing the Forge somehow has come across some previously unknown diameter or flow pattern that magically increases boost over the stock IC. You're giving the IC credit for doing more than it actually does.

 

Stock IC or GP IC with Meth fixes all the issues. :ihih:

 

Until your cheapie meth system controller craps out again... At least it wasn't tuned for meth... Time for an HSF-2.

 

First of all - if it flowed that much more air your psi would drop. Flow is the inverse of pressure.

Secondly the gear ratios are fixed so at 6000 rom in 4th you will always do the same speed. The difference is in how quickly you get there.

 

The pressure increases because the intercooler is less efficient and flows less - it bottlenecks the air. If you increase the flow the boost will drop - as evidenced when you put a big valve head or increase the displacement of the motor. Remember the s/c pulley hasn't changed - it is still moving the same amount of air.

 

(Edited) No personal attacks..as you say.

...... just let it go.

 

Meth fixes everything... :devil:


FYI - FUN does not stand for fun.