Most liked posts in thread: FOTD - Fail of the Dragon

It's one thing I am absolute on, so we'll have to agree to disagree...

Posted speed limits are there for a reason, and it has nothing to do with your 'ability' to handle a car at the speed. They are there because of the road itself (e.g. construction, crown, camber, materials), traffic, feeder roads, blind corners, potential for crap in the road (e.g. Mulholland Drive near LA which routinely has corners with sand/rocks/crap), etc. You may be able to drive a road at 70 mph that's posted 55 mph, but honestly, about 99.9% of people probably shouldn't - nor should they even if they 'could'.

The vast majority of MINI drivers I have come across:

1. Are nowhere near as capable as their car is...
2. Think they are much more capable than they actually are...

This is a very bad combination... It's bitten quite a few people. Hard. This isn't to say there aren't people out there that are capable because there are - but, if you want to check out how competent you are as a driver, the place to do it isn't on a public road - that's my point. At least on the track, all you'll be trashing is your car (and potentially you, being that motorsports do have some inherent risk in them), maybe some grass, Armco, etc.

As far as #1 above goes, well, you can learn about how capable your car is by putting it in the hands of your instructor at the track... And then, you can work to get yourself to that point. You will be amazed at how much faster your instructor is than you are...

As far as #2 goes, it's JMHO that there is ALWAYS something you can learn and enhance to make your capabilities better. Nobody's that good. If you were, you'd be in a professional race series. It takes some humility to realize that you probably don't have as fine tuned of skills as you think you do - the VAST majority of people are unwilling to come to this self-realization. Nor will most people take ALL other factors into account (e.g. 'Who's going to be on this road at 2 AM? Let's kick it up a notch...'). I'm the first to admit that while normally fast at the track, I'm also constantly learning things while out there - and especially when taking more experienced people along with me for pointers.

Consequently, #1 and #2 above are also why we tell current and potential customers that they should focus on learning their car before they start monkeying around with it... And then, only make changes in small steps. Learn, modify, re-learn, modify, rinse, lather, repeat.

As far as 'kicking it up a notch' for a 'spirited drive' - even if you think you have a road to yourself, all it takes is one variable to come up and things will go bad in a hurry... As little as 10 mph more than a posted speed limit will SIGNIFICANTLY affect your ability to manuver, stop, etc. There is no runoff room on a road like the Dragon, nor most public roads, and there's lots of hard stuff (trees, curbs, other cars) and soft stuff (animals, people) to hit. Even in the best of circumstances, there are so many variables that can catch you out despite your capability and car control skills.

Driving the speed limit can get you killed, sure. Just like anything else, you kind of never know when your card is going to be punched - especially with plenty of people on public roads with you that probably shouldn't be. And that's kind of my point - why add excessive speed into the equation? Certainly, you might be capable, but then again 99.9% of all other drivers are NOT. Then, add in all the other variables. IMHO, it's just not worth it, regardless of your capability, your car's capability, and all the other variables...

I don't expect people to agree with me on this - lots think I am ut:. I haven't lost anyone in my life in a driving incident or anything like that - I just don't ever, in any circumstance or condition, regardless of driver capability, condone excessive speed or other wreckless driving acts on public roads.

Speed belongs on the track. Testing the limits of you and your ride also belong on the track.

 

The abilities of the driver, and the lack of traffic are not the only considerations of a "Speed Limit" An unexpected road imperfection would be much different at 80mph vs. 65. Reaction time needs to be iquicker. Not to mention the sudden Deer in the headlights.

Also warning signs that show a speed for a corner or bend, do not indicate the maximum speed in which the corner "can" be taken, but the speed in which it "should" be taken, due to obsticales that could be in your path around the bend, including intersections, driveways, etc.

When there are others sharing the road, 15-20mph faster than everyone else is going, can be dangerous for even the most accomplished driver, as most driver's do not pay attention.

Your abilities have no bearing, when others on the road do not share those abilities.

For example, on the track, I will push my abilities to the limit, when I am certian, or fairly certain of the abilities of others on the track with me at the same time. This is why track days a split into groups.

But because I am human, even knowing all of the above, there are many more times that "I drive it like I stole it" than I should.:rolleyes5:

 

Jinx... I owe you a coke!

 

I can attest to this one. At 45 mph on a corner that I've taken much faster, with summer performance tires not rated for 34 degrees F, I rolled my right rear tire over a heave in the pavement on the Hellbender last year. Ten seconds later we were hanging upside down in our seatbelts in the ditch. There are so many little things that can add up to one big accident. Adding excessive speed into the mix is a recipe for disaster.

 

This is true is any case though.. regardless. Speeding or not.

This is so true. I always tell people, if you are above 6/10s you are going too fast. A road like the dragon automatically puts you at 5/10s. Unless you are going super slow. And ofcourse most people prolly dont know they are at 6-8/10s before it's too late. LOL

There is nothing wrong with enjoying a road. Enjoying the drive. Etc.. but if you are pushing your self or your car on the street, well, it's just not the place.

I also agree, 90% of the people out there think they are more capable than they are. I have heard numerous people say "I know the limits of my car" Yea right... right up untill they crash. Then it's "I dunno what happen"

sigh

 

While I agree with the majority of your post, I do want to call to your attention one basic fact.

Speed limits are not always set strictly based upon safety and conditions. All too often, they are set artificially low for either political sensitivity or revenue generation.

Since 1966, there has been a Congressional mandate on how traffic devices & signs (including speed limits) are set. The federal document is called the Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices (MUTCD). The problem is that all too often, local & state jurisdictions ignore some of the rules & requirements set in the MUTCD, especially when it comes to speed limits.

Speed limits are supposed to be set based upon solid, fact-finding traffic studies and road engineering/design, not at the whim of some politician.

Am I saying that I think the limit on the Dragon is too low? No, I'm not (necessarily). I'm just challenging your over-simplified assertion that "limits are there for a reason" when they all-too-often are indeed artificially low, lower than the road was designed for. Does that mean it's OK to speed on them? No, I'm not saying that either, because the law is still the law (even when it's wrong). It's a shame that more people don't get involved in challenging their local & state governments to follow the MUTCD though.

People have challenged traffic tickets (not just speeding but other types as well) and won, based upon the fact that the signs were federally illegal to begin with. This isn't hokey stuff, it's real.

I'm a lifetime member of the National Motorists Association (NMA), a non-profit whose sole purpose is to fight for and protect our rights as drivers against government interference and over-regulation. Do I agree with every cause they push? No... but the vast majority of it, yes. Think of them as the NRA, but for drivers instead of gun owners.

Some useful links:

Direct link to the latest version of the MUTCD (heavy read!)
NMA article on safety and setting speed limits

All I'm saying is - don't just accept that all speed limits are automatically based upon fair, prudent & reasonable engineering & traffic monitoring standards, Scott. Many of them aren't.

NOTE: Again, I concur with most of what you posted. I just challenge the blind faith you appear to have in the folks who actually set the speed limits.

 

Scott, your reply was well thought out!

Most of what you say I agree with in this latest post. The nuance is, though, that there is a difference in "testing one's limits" or "testing the capabilities" or "excessive speed", versus what I'm saying is a "spirited drive".

If regular driving took 5% of my skill, I'd say a spirited drive would take 25-30% of my skill. "Pushing the limits" would be 75-100%. Maybe therein lies a misconception of what I'm saying.

I would certainly not advocate excessive speed, unsafe driving, or testing capabilities on public roads, and agree that's what tracks and closed courses are for. However, I think that in many cases, posted limits do not even begin to approach these thresholds in any way. I also agree that limits take into account many things. They also take into account "below average" driving skill and multiple vehicle types.

A turn that is labeled as 15mph limit, is likely taking into account sight distance, road conditions, failure modes (into a field vs off a cliff....), etc etc etc. It is also taking into account that the guy making that turn might be 80 years old, have blown out suspension on his '76 Malibu, and a lawn mower in the trunk.

I'm not saying someone should break that limit, but that the limit may be very slow for what a competent driver with a performance oriented vehicle taking a spirited drive might be able to handle in a completely safe manner, also with contingency for unexpected complications.

As for the rest of it, we agree (in different words) that one must be honest with their abilities, and I also agree that very few people have the Wisdom to truly be honest with their abilities (myself included).

I just started autocrossing this summer and realize I know a few things, but that knowledge is dwarfed by what I don't know.

Don

 

Now it gets interesting.

Posted speed limit on the Dragon? Which one? The one that was set based on some rational analysis by a traffic engineer several years ago (45mph), or the one that was set a couple of years ago based on some political pressure (30mph)?

I'm all for folks driving at a safe speed. But I believe there are HUGE disconnects between what are rational safe speeds on some roadways vs. the posted limits. Many factors determine what the posted speed ends up being. Rational engineering analysis and safety are often not the only (or, in some cases, even the primary) factors.

Other than the fact that we have MANY poorer drivers on the roads, why don't our autobahn-quality highways have autobahn speed policies? And, in the absence of other traffic, why should it be a crime to drive these roads at any speed within the capabilities of a given car and driver? This is MY pet peeve.

Am I advocating people driving at 10/10's on public roadways? Of course not. Am I advocating folks driving on the wrong side of the road on the Dragon? Already said I don't. Should you limit your overtake speeds to small differentials when passing to account for the unknown and clueless drivers? Absolutely. (translation: don't zoom by folks on the highway because you can). But on an otherwise empty stretch of road with known conditions? That I've driven many times before? It's nobody's business but my own how fast I choose to drive there...

Edit: Edge stole some of my thunder. Darn him posting while I take over an hour to compose a post... :lol:

 

You know I have no beef with you, my friend. And completely agree with and respect your intent here.

But to me, "context" has everything to do with the conditions and location where someone put a wheel or two on or over the line...

Blind curves - NEVER, EVER, NEVER hang over the centerline. And if it's an inside corner, leave an extra foot for the maniac biker's helmet to occupy.
Clear sightlines... well.... if it's REALLY a clear sightline, and you REALLY know that no one is coming in the other lane.... does it matter REALLY?

That's all I'm saying. I understand the "good form" vs. "bad form" arguments. But, unless Killboy's new motorcycle has stealth capabilities, I'm not going to kill him while crossing the centerline on a clear sightline corner when he's not coming...

 

Why yes, yes it does, if you are in the habit of NEVER crossing the line, then your bad judgement will never be called into question.

 

So, like picking your nose when nobody's watching, then? Hypothetically?

 

Dang. Busted by MINIBee. Now everyone knows that I stay on my side of the road... where's the controversy if I'm a boring safe driver like you guys? :lol:

Yeah... personally, I work hard to stay in my lane (or maybe put a toe on the line once in a while) because it's more of a challenge to drive it that way than to take the whole road and "straighten" it... but, I'm just sayin..... I reserve the right to touch the yellow line once in a while and ain't gonna be ashamed, as long as I *meant* to do it and it was in *safe* conditions. That's all I'm sayin' about double yellow lines.... now, about warp speed on empty roads... that's something else...

Because MINIBee has also never seen me drive 5mph over the limit. Except when en route to a different velocity.

 

Exactly!

 

And now for some other enlightenment...

Just because poorly trained LEOs do this doesn't make it right. We are enthusiast drivers and we need to be better. This is the real hall of shame...

 

Glad to see we now have an even playing field..........Thanks Track Toy

Can we now move on to a more positive topics on the Dragon ? I ended up with brake problems and couldn't go, so I would like to hear some GOOD stories please !

Bueller ?

Anyone ?

 

Yet if he witnessed you doing it he would pull you over, sure you deserve it but that is just wrong I know breaking the law is a "perk" but that as discussed extensively is just stupid.