manic tunes or not-- S model or JCW #2 ALWAYS is the one with detonation and broken/melted ring lands and crown. We have replaced over 25 N14 engines with this exact issue when new engines from MINI were 4300 or so- now we take them apart and attempt to fix them. I am as yet unsure why it is #2 every time, but it is.
Thanx for the good thoughts. Probably not gonna be much demand for an upgraded upper mount. Without a big dia. pipe and lotsa torque, who's gonna notice any excess torque roll? It can't be seen unless the hood's off, or it's on a "rolling road". I've had it for years and still didn't notice the bent pipe 'til the engine was pulled. Sleeper --- the most rewarding of them all. Maybe an occasional drag strip run, just to get a respectable time slip. Also, be nice to show differences in performance at high elevation vs sea level. I don't have the experience or automotive knowledge to say what the initial problem was. I've been led to believe that a high CR combined with high boost will cause my failures --- melted piston and collapsed cylinder wall. I've attached a better pic of #2. Also note that this setup has been on the road for about 2 years and 20K miles, and the pistons are comparatively clean, thanks mostly to WMI. So, where does "detonation" come from? 30psi and 10.5:1CR will cause an extreme amount of pressure and heat (so I've been told), especially running an 80 / 20 WMI mix --- and at the track, I had about half a tank of 100 octane mixed with my usual 91 octane. Possibly enough heat to start melting a piston where the wall has been deformed by the extreme pressure. I too have heard manic tunes "reduce" the built-in safe-guards, but not eliminate them --- hard to believe anyone wanting to stay in business, internationally, would be stupid enough to completely eliminate safety measures. As for engine knock, the only time either I or the ECU detected any was before Manic got involved. They were very audible, and broke a spark plug. It was called a "super knock" by the cel. I'm using CP again 'cause I don't believe they had anything to do with causing the failure. Also, they're among the best available and willing to work with customers to create custom product. And known to be compatible with my Carrillo rods. Other changes include Cat cams and possibly a different turbo --- TBD. MBC will be turned down to 25 - 28psi. Thumper gets another shot too, in spite of the various opinions of his product. Flow test numbers are an advertising feature --- results are too --- WHP and torque. Vendors of similar products all have their "followers" --- sort of like Ford and Chevy people --- love theirs and hate the other one. My last build did nothing with smoothing / leveling the deck / head surfaces. This build, the block is being sent out for a "Cylinder Support System" then bored to 77.5mm and decked. The CSS, combined with lower CR (9.0:1) and DD boost (28psi max), should help prevent this kind of damage. No comment on why #2 seems to be the weak link. My guess is a structural design flaw. So, as progress occurs, I'll post it. Gonna be at least a couple months for it all to come together. Can't do the block without a piston to measure. Couldn't get a piston until I selected a cam set (need to know the lift for piston notching). Couldn't get a cam 'til I knew what's available, price and delivery --- this happened yesterday. Pistons are being "negotiated" with a local CP dealer and are 2 - 3 weeks away, maybe. Rods are getting new bushings and #2 rod is getting melted aluminum removed. Block will take about 4 weeks at their shop, which is located across the country in NH --- I'm in NV, so a week shipping each way. Head work also had to wait for cam info --- might need to build with aftermarket springs and retainers. Cat uses OEM springs / retainers. My old Beehive springs to be mailed tomorrow. The head was ordered today. No rush.
Good Luck with it all, love to see others willing to experiment, push some limits, and take some risks. Lol... "Sleeper".... puts a smile on my face just thinking about it....
Detonation is a lean condition. I don't think it's a heat issue melting rings and deforming cylinder walls it's detonation. Detonation can change cylinder pressure 10x instantly. I forget what the psi can reach but it's ungodly. Ur super hard Pistons prolly transferred a ton of force and took out your block too. That cylinder wall is straight up cracked. That combined with the looks of that piston means detonation for sure. Idk what direct injection Piston crowns should look like but uber clean Pistons means lean to me... I'm not an automotive tuner but on dirt bikes pings are always because of a lean condition. Always. More air than fuel. If i'm getting pings on a dirt bike it's most certainly the tune. Easy Peasy. If its running lean/hot/detonating, richen fuel mix, no question. What makes you think it's not the tune? It's easy to say manic wouldn't be in business if they were blowing people's cars up but yours blowed up... How many others? Just saying. I've heard from multiple "reliable" sources that high level manic tunes like to pop and yours would be the first one I've seen for myself. How many 300 plus hp minis on manic tunes do you think are out there? How many survived? I know it's probably not what you want to hear but I think its the tune. Maybe talk to manic and get a revised tune or something idk, something needs to change there IMO. Another thing. Bored cylinders will run hotter now. A decked block will run super hot. I hope you don't plan on taking any road trips after that... why do you want a decked block? The forged Pistons can still splode under detonation and take out the cylinder wall... I don't see the point of a decked block, on a 300 hp car I don't see why it's necessary if the car is running right. I think you have to adress the root of the problem first which is why the car is detonating under high load
I made a mistake by choosing 10.5:1CR pistons for 30psi boost --- I admit it, and take full responsibility for blowing up my engine. It was a hell of a lot of fun while it lasted tho. You want to call it a detonation issue, fine. We'll see how long my next generation of mods survives.
Ping is just another word for pre ignition. You didn't hear anything happening in there right before it "let go"? Stuttering? Clanking? Metallic sounding misfire type deal? I'm confused, I must be missing something. Why do u have such faith in manic still? If you were to do it all over again you would leave the same tune and just run lower compression? I mean, they do have a pretty sweet YouTube video but... Idk of any 300+ hp cars without a manic tune. Definitely not mine at the moment... Jzw is claiming big numbers with ethanol mix if the boost seepage can be found idk. Right now it spools at 4K, makes 15 pounds, then freaks out and dumps boost lmao. If he can't get it to work I'm going to wait on a stand alone.. I'm running Jcw compression, 10:5:1 I think. I don't think the comp will be an issue if I can scoot around without detonating fwiw. If I does pre ignite, Jzw said he left knock settings intact. Idk exactly how it works... I'm thinking the computer will detect something wierd, and cut fuel/retard timing/dump boost, before I could ever get my foot out of it (milliseconds). Possibly keep the stroke from powering through a million psi, maybe it will work, prolly won't. I told him I didn't care about limp mode, just the emergency "safety" features, and he seemed to know what I was talking about. We'll have see how long mine lasts before it poops. I'm guessing 10k. Anyone want to get a pool going?
As I posted when I started this thread --- I was at the drag strip and it was performing pretty good until halfway thru the 2nd run, when it let go --- compression into the crankcase and dislodged the dipstick. Also blew a coolant hose off the t'stat housing. Time slips show times typical of many modded mini's and speeds over 100, even the 2nd run. I hardly call that a problem. Time slips are attached to post #1. I haven't seen Manic's youtube video, and like I said, I don't believe the problem had anything to do with the tune! I'm convinced the cylinder stress accumulated gradually over several months, until it finally let go. Yes, if I duplicated my last build, I would run lower CR, AND lower boost to 25 - 28psi max. Even tho the tune was designed for 30, I seldom ran it that hard --- didn't need to. I'm sorry to hear about your problems --- spooling at 4K is slower than my big Garrett was --- unless you mean peaked at 4K, which would be awesome. In a post from RMW's Jan, he indicates that testing has been started on a stand-alone. No other info provided. So, maybe there's hope for those waiting. I chose to not wait --- I've been hearing about stand-alones for 5 years now. Let me emphasize the "Old" in my user ID. I believe OEM JCW CR is closer to 10.0:1. The MCS is 10.5 and Justa's are 11.0:1 --- per my Bentley manual, or some other thing I read. 'Course, they can be rebuilt to most anything --- I hate to see you wait on a stand-alone, your mod list looks impressive enough to get close to the "300 club". I've seen others list JZW as their tuner, and no one has bad-mouthed him. Once he finds and fixes your problem, you should end up with a pretty nice machine. Just gotta fix it before it gets a performance tune. He's pretty sure the wastegate isn't leaking?
Pinging is not the same as pre-ignition. Pinging is another name for detonation which takes place after spark ignition. Many engine can and do operate for relatively long periods of time under detonation. Knock sensors pickup the characteristic frequency of this detonation. Pre-Ignition as the name implies takes place before spark ignition and no engine can survive this but for a few seconds if even that long. Pre-ignition does not make any characteristic noise (other than the engine grenading). The hole in the piston is a good indictor of the intense heat and sustained pressure of pre-ignition.
Exactly-here are some photos of an N14 JCW engine I built last summer. Note the crown of the oem piston has a very DIESEL engine appearance. For those of you unfamiliar (and I am NOT a diesel expert of any kind), the"cup" cast into the middle of the piston, in a diesel, would act as a pre-burn puddle or some such as diesels do not use spark ignition, instead relying on heat and pressure to ignite the fuel. The fuel puddled in the piston crown or a pocket in the combustion chamber, ignites just before the injector opens so the flame front is already started, as far as I have been told. Fuel gets there from a pre injector in a smaller amount. Diesels are weird. SO are Prince engines. In this application I will note this cup is directly in line with the injector nozzle and it seems to me, is intended to help the high pressure fuel charge from the injector spread across the combustion chamber for an even burn of the flame front. In the other photo you can see we used the CP 9.5 to 1 advertised CR pistons with valve reliefs but no aftermarket piston I am aware of has this cup built into it so it is difficult to know how important that design is. IMHO the combustion chambers of these heads are TERRIBLE from a design point of view and the engineers conjured up this weird ass piston top as a band aid for a poor cyl head design. I did use a burrett on this build to measure ACTUAL static CR and with the block decked .008 to clean it up and make it exactly square, a standard thickness head gasket and the CP pistons, it was exactly 10.03 to one and wnet on to make 299 whp on a dyno jet dyno with a manic tune.
Ya I was wrong about pre ignition vs ping/detonation. Learn something new every day. https://www.tricktuners.com/detonation_explained.htm My supertech Pistons came with all those little cups and things your talking about on the crown. The crown looked the same as OEM but the color of the piston and skirts were different... I didn't snap any pics of them side by side I wish I did now... They're supposed to be a "softer" forged piston than cp with a higher silicon content or something.
obw: Yes, it's That Guy from the other forum. I appreciate your your sharing your thoughts and experiences. I was going to pose my question here then I saw your thread. Geez, when you fry 'em, you don't mess around!! #2 piston was definitely pissed off... Curious about the broken turbo. Unless it is just coincidence (which rarely happens), I don't see the connection between the meltdown and the bearing failure.
I also post on the european forum, MiniTorque. I had a turbo guru tell me that when crankcase pressure built up, probably from the blown piston and before the cylinder wall let go, oil return from the turbo stopped. No oil flow for a spinning turbo overheats turbo bearings. On turbo dis-assembly, there was only one functioning bearing race in place --- the other race and balls were the ones found in the oil pan / pump. Pretty sure this is why I had what I thought was a PCV problem for the last several months --- oil being forced past the turbo oil seal by crankcase pressure, and into the air inlet chamber.
Spouse tells me there was a "big" puff of black smoke when it went. Minimal smoke otherwise. Used about a qt every 1K or so, but not past the rings --- mostly thru the turbo seal --- like there was enough crankcase pressure to minimize turbo oil flow. Now that it's apart, I'm draining a bunch out of the FMIC. Gonna get a good solvent rinse during re-assembly. Hoses too.
When I used a catch can my crank case pressure/oil comsumption increased. A quart every 1k is massive consumption in my book... Your saying the turbo seals were dead?
Not dead, just not good enough to prevent oil seepage due to crankcase pressure. As I understand turbo seals, they aren't true seals, like our crank or tranny seals, just really good bushings. I found no "seals" when I took my turbo apart.
Idk how Garret works but the Borg warmers have two snap rings holding the compressor shaft that wear thin so I guess your right they aren't really "seals", but everyone calls them that
OK, just started a new thread --- "OldBrokenWind's "Phoenix"" --- http://www.motoringalliance.com/forums/cooper-s-clubman-s-engine-and-drivetrain/28728-oldbrokenwinds-phoenix.html It picks up the assembly process.