I think that's the real issue, not enough refineries. I don't think the US has the capability to refine more oil products even if we bring them out of the ground or down the pipeline. Can anyone confirm this one way or the other?
When was the last time the government issued a permit to build a refinery here in the US and how long does it take to get one?
I was listening to a Radio program yesterday about the price of oil. They said that right now the U.S. has excess production capacity for gasoline, so that is not an issue in the price of oil. The main things contributing to high gas prices is demand for oil in developing countries and reduced production of crude oil in the middle east, Iran is selling less oil due to the economic embargo, and Libya has not returned to full capacity since their revolution. Dave
So if we were getting more oil out of the ground here, we wouldnt have to depend on Iran or any other country to increase oil supply? This might be a novel idea, but could we actually become more self dependant? I'd vote to put that in the new energy policy!
March 16, 2012 Shell Oil Co. has chosen a site near Pittsburgh for a major, multibillion-dollar petrochemical refinery that could provide a huge economic boost to the region. Dan Carlson, Shell's general manager of new business development, said Thursday that the company signed a land option agreement with Horsehead Corp. to evaluate a site near Monaca, about 35 miles northwest of Pittsburgh. The so-called ethane cracking, or "cracker," plant would convert ethane from bountiful Marcellus Shale natural gas liquids into more profitable chemicals such as ethylene, which are then used to produce everything from plastics to tires to antifreeze. The plants are called crackers because they use heat and other processes to break the ethane molecules into smaller chemical components. A cracker plant looks similar to a gasoline refinery, with miles of pipes and large storage tanks. The final complex could cover several hundred acres. Full Story at Shell Picks Pittsburgh Area For Major Refinery : NPR
See When was the last refinery built in the United States? - FAQ - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) In Short... It's been awhile...
...and two out of the last five are currently owned by Petro. UMMMM.... Then the newest significant refinery started operations in....1977?
Wow just noticed from Nathan's link that the last significant oil refinery here in the US started operations in 1977, which also happens to be the exact same year that the Department of Energy was create with the sole purpose to reduce our dependance on foreign oil... Coincidence that not one major refinery has been built since the DOE started helping us? Priceless.
Before we get all caught up in US Refinery capacity keep this little fact in mind. We currently have more capacity than we need to keep the US awash in Gas, Diesel and Jet Fuel. We have become a net exporter in refined petroleum products. Tossing out some of the more left and right wing articles I found out there... These make for interesting reads... As gas prices rise, should US oil industry stop exporting? - CSMonitor.com Gas Pains? U.S. Diesel, Gas Exports Surpass Imports : NPR U.S. Nears Milestone: Net Fuel Exporter - WSJ.com So why do we export so much when we have to import this oil and we have the highest costs to refine? It's expensive to start and stop a refinery. Keeping it running 24/7/365 helps to keep the overall cost low. Due to the economic slowdown we have here we can't use all the the refineries can produce. It makes sense to the refinery operator to keep them running and sell the fuel overseas. Follow the bouncing ball here. we sell refined products to Norway and Singapore, just a few of the places we ship refined product too. So that Supertanker fills up with crude in Saudi Arabia. Empties the load to the refiners on the Gulf Coast. The fills back up with refined products and takes them to Singapore before heading back to the Middle East to complete the circle. I don't know about you but that just sounds stupid when you say it out loud. Yet the parties involved are making money at it while we suffer $4.00 gas. The planets energy policy needs an overhaul, not just the US. I wish I knew how to fix it. I could spout a holier than thou bit that I live in a City Center where I can walk to a lot of things I need. I work from home removing the commute oil costs too. But that is MY choice. We should all have choice such as this.
I read last week the Marcus-Hook refinery closed it gates after 110 years of operation in Pennsylvania, 590 workers lost their jobs, two other Philly area refineries are shutting down this year. These three plants alone account for one half the refining capacity in the northeast. The main reason sited for closure was EPA with tougher and more stringent guidelines.
Before we get into the EPA being a job killer keep this in mind... These sites could not easily retrofit to meet the new requirements. Lets face facts, many of these newer requirements for cleaner fuels are a good idea in the long run. Some of us are old enough to remember some serious smog. Some of these regulation such as the Clinton Administration mandating the diesel get cleaned up really do help. We went from 500PPM sulfur to 15PPM sulfur in diesel mimicking the EU regulations. In turn the refineries along the Gulf Coast spent billions retrofitting the facilities they have. This led to net gain in capacity of 37% above what these refiners could produce previously and made the product suitable for export to the EU.
Could the $550 million lost in Solyndra have been better spent helping this refinery meet the new standards, thus saving a company and the jobs there with the side benefit of maintaining the refining capacity in the North East? Heck, they probably would have even paid the money back.... Better investment? PS: Forgot Fisker, add that in and we could have invested over $1BILLION to save an already American energy producer and the American jobs that go along with it. Which would fit into a good energy policy for America? Which would have had a better chance in effecting gas prices?
I know I am not blaming EPA entirely, but they are not helping. Cleaning up diesel I agree was a good thing, but why don't they allow more of the highly efficient smaller engines to be imported into the US. During the spike in gas during the Bush years he offered up some of the closed military bases as sites to build new highly efficient refineries. They have just approved a new nuclear plant after what 30 years, to say the Fed moves slow is a little bit of a understatement,( what do you want to bet it will never be built.)
It takes more energy to split water into hydrogen and oxygen than the liberated hydrogen actually contains. Same for ethanol. It takes more energy to grow, harvest, and refine many grains than the finished ethanol contains. And as far as letting the market decide what energy source to use. ..... I'd prefer that as a society we be more Proactive rather than Reactive. However I do agree that government decrees tend to be short sighted. By the way. I grew up in the glow of the flare towers in "the Hook" as us locals called Marcus Hook. I worked at the Gulf refinery in South Philadelphia and other relatives worked at the Sun plant in Edystone. I do not miss the stink and smog.
Hydrogen power vehicles at this point is the same as electric vehicles, they are both technology that is yet to be fully realized, until they are, and I am sure they will be in 15 years or so, utilize what we have now, fossil fuel. I also worked at a facility that was dirty smelly and just not very pleasant, but it was a good paying job as I am sure the refinery jobs were in the northeast, it fed my family and put kids through college and supplied us with a nice home. The same would happen again if the government would get out of the way and quit hindering what made this country the world leader in innovation and manufacturing. Yes the plants in the northeast were old and probably too expensive to retrofit but the government stands in the way of replacing those we are closing. China is now where we were in the boom years after WWII making technology and transportation available to every one. Cheap labor and few restrictions are why our jobs have moved to the Pacific rim, but that is not news to anyone. It has been fun, time to get off this thread, fill up the MINI with fossel fuel and Motor.:wink:
Thanks to Issac I watched the price of gas leap 20 cents today. Low on gas I saw the price for 93 was 3.87 at the BP while at the light across the intersection from the station. Pulled in and by the time I parked at the pump the price went to 4.17. Arrghh