--->Redbeard: It's cool, we all have our own reasons, I was just trying to shed some light on what I thought made good sense. :blush2: I always forget that the 'Vette and Viper are actually "sports cars". To me they're still Muscle since they're such brutes compared to a european or japanese sports car. Forgive me for that! Very nice addition to the thread MaxN! That's excellent to hear your feedback on having the first three generations of the GTi/GTI [not sure when they went to a capital "I"]. Your experience sounds very familiar. Auto makers seem to totally forget what makes the original so good as they get misguided into adding things that dillute the experience but improve their JD Powers survey results. The current MkVI Golf's are still excellent cars but in a very different way from the earlier generations. They seem to be closer to Grand Touring cars [quiet, comfy, cover ground well, sporty enough without being too obtrusive or rough], and for that they excel immensely. I do wish VW offered something closer to the original Mk I GTi, however I can say the same thing for BMW's E30, and Mazda's NA Miata. This is why the MINI became so groundbreaking when it came out in '02, it came real close to being what the Mk I GTi used to be in a modern [albiet retro styled] wrapper. You mention to Elise; it really does ooze character and soul, not only from the outside but from behind the wheel too. Perhaps surprising to some is that it's driving dynamics don't have a nasty dark side [the Viper gets very high praise for that IMO]. The Elise communicates its limit nicely, as long as you're a good driver it's second nature to work with the car to get it to adjust how you want. That said, you did hit the nail on the head; the car doesn't suffer fools. Do something real stupid at the limit and it'll make you look exactly that way.
I have an Elise on my car shopping list - I really hope that this will be the year to buy one. I have had the pleasure of driving a 'bone stock' Elise back-to-back with my, ahem, modified Mini. I personally find that the Mini is easier to drive at/near the limit. Partly because as you edge closer to the limit the warning signs are understeer based Sure the MINI is very neutral for a FWD car but it will yell at you as you get near to the limit of adhesion. I personally feel that I can drive the Mini at ~90% all (track) day long, with occasional bursts up to 92% but not much more. You can also be slightly sloppy and a little heavy handed with the Mini, it does suffer fools unless you whack a huge rear sway bar on the thing. Backing off in the Mini seems to sort most things out..... The Elise however is more technical. 90% takes some working up to, not just because of the speed that you can carry, but also because it demands a much gentler touch than the Mini, very small adjustments can be made easily, but if you try to make a big adjustment at that level, things go bad, fast. Backing off mid-bend is a real issue and once the pendulum starts it is only pure luck that keeps you out of the tires. Hence my angle/devil comment. On my benchmark track (Streets of Willow) I am a couple of seconds a lap faster in the Elise, but still about 1.7 seconds slower than the Elise's owner. On the flip side he is a whole second / lap faster in my Mini than I am. So yes it comes down to driver, but also I am less comfortable playing around beyond 90% in the Elise. It takes a steady hand, small adjustments and lightning reactions. Most of which I do not posses. I still intend to get one though
The Elise will definitely challenge you to improve your driving skills. I love mine ['05 Elise with Katana supercharger]. If you can fit in one, it's worth putting on your "must have" list. The MINI is a very easy car to grow into. My #848 is still very easy to drive; it'll understeer or oversteer at will, yet be completely neutral if you drive properly. It's not tough for me to hang with stock Exige S's on the track, but I get walked by modded 2-Elevens. Then again the 2-Eleven's I can't hang with also have 245 wide Hoosiers and 80 more HP with much less weight! Back to the Golf R [feeble attempt to stay on topic, LOL] I think it'll be a fantastic hot-hatch for most enthusiasts. It'll give people that wished the MINI actually seated 4 in comfort a good drive.