Engine Drivetrain 1st Gen Cooper S Most liked posts in thread: Head/Header/Cam Installation and Results

  1. cct1

    cct1 Well-Known Member
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    #2 cct1, Aug 7, 2011
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2011
    This is dyno plot, and I apologize for not having a before and after--that was my intention, but Dan was tuning a race car and time didn't allow.

    This is apples to oranges, I'm not a numbers whore, but a delta whore, but for what it's worth, Jan tuned the car when it was a stock JCW, in eerily similar conditions, at a tune party in Lake Villa Illinois in the summer of 2008. It was in the low 90's, high humidity. I don't have the dyno sheet any more, but at 7200 RPM's it was making 189 HP on either a dynajet or dynapack, can't remember which. But there are plenty of dyno graphs of stock JCW's tuned around anyway.



    This time it was tuned on Superflow Dyno, which reads low (Dan told me people bring their Mustangs in, put them on the dyno, and leave with destroyed pride and broken hearts):D. What's more important than the numbers are the curves themselves. I apologize for it starting at 3500--didn't notice that until I got home. As you'd expect, the torque drops off below 3500--it doesn't have that awesome flat line all the way down the rev limit. From 3500 on up, it's just fantastic, especially compared to what it was as stock JCW. I can't wait to get it on the track.
     

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  2. mini_racer

    mini_racer Well-Known Member

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    Depending on your tire selection, you may be feathering that throttle a bunch. That is a good problem to have.
     
  3. cct1

    cct1 Well-Known Member
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    And here is a reference to how the various dynos stack up--this is the exact same car, on three different dynos, under as close to as identical conditions as possible--granted, it's a Mazda with a Rotrex, but it does give an idea how they read:
     

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  4. minimark

    minimark Well-Known Member

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    Very sweet, Congratulations!!! Can't wait to hear your impressions at the track!:Thumbsup:
     
  5. Nathan

    Nathan Founder

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    Great write-up. Thanks for sharing!
     
  6. k-huevo

    k-huevo Club Coordinator

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    The graph should be re-scaled. HP & Torque don't cross over at 7000 rpm.
     
  7. BThayer23

    BThayer23 Well-Known Member

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  8. ScottinBend

    ScottinBend Space Cowboy
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    I am surprised you're not getting more torques.
     
  9. cct1

    cct1 Well-Known Member
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    The superflow dyno reads low, about 10-15% lower than a dynapak as a point of reference. The day was horrible too--90+ degrees, 75% humidity, less than ideal.

    The car pulls hard above about 3000; if I lay into the throttle in second gear with the DSC off (I have the factory LSD), the front tires light up. I wish I had a preinstall dyno to compare to, that would have been more helpful, but time didn't allow. Seeing the delta would have been nice as opposed to absolute numbers, which I always take with a grain of salt.
     
  10. ScottinBend

    ScottinBend Space Cowboy
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    I was just comparing the HP to TQ numbers, not the actual graph number. Not sure I have seen one with that big a spread.
     
  11. Jan

    Jan Well-Known Member
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    all dyno's read different.....case in point
     
  12. ScottinBend

    ScottinBend Space Cowboy
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    I just thought the torques would be closer to the hp.....aren't they supposed to be?

    I am honestly just curious about this.
     
  13. Jan

    Jan Well-Known Member
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    Scott, this is a different dyno.........that's how it reads
     
  14. ScottinBend

    ScottinBend Space Cowboy
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    :confused5:

    What does the dyno have to do with the numbers? I am not asking why this is different from another plot, just why is there such a large difference between the TQ and HP number. Is it due to the parts, the tune, is it normal?
     
  15. BThayer23

    BThayer23 Well-Known Member

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    #16 BThayer23, Aug 9, 2011
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2011
    Also curious about that. Stock numbers at the crank are 168 hp and 160 ft-lbs, right? So for the numbers to diverge that much - looks like 240hp/180ft-lbs - the upper end of the torque curve must change dramatically to affect the peak HP. HP is torque times revs divided by 5252, which is why HP = torque when revs = 5252. Above 5252 rpm, the torque number is increased by revs, which keeps the HP curve going up while the torque curve falls off on most engines, the R53 included.

    The redline would have to be raised significantly, or the torque curve was completely reworked and modest gains in the mid-range (~4500) were dwarfed by significant gains up high (5500+). The divergence in HP/torque numbers means essentially that the character of the new engine bears no relation to the old one. Most engines with a profile like this one have figured out a way to breathe better up top - in our case, it's called a supercharger and a high-flow head. You can always add more fuel, but to take advantage of the higher revs, you need a lot more air. That's why it's worth charting HP. Air and fuel requirements are related to revs, so multiply the air and fuel requirements times the power it's making and you can understand how the engine's making it's power.

    /ramble
     
  16. HRM

    HRM New Member

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    That is a fact.

    The equation (Torque x Engine speed) / 5,252 = Horsepower requires them to be the same.

    Dynos and their software can measure the force directly and try to graph it, so they don't necessarily have to use the above formula in any way. This is why the delta is really the important number. Not only to they read differently, but the underlying math formulas can be different in a huge way.

    That graph does not accurately plot the theoretical math, but it does plot how the device measures the force. You can use that graph to compare other cars or equipment best on that same machine and it will work perfectly, but you can't compare the results to other dynos and use it as effectively.
     
  17. cct1

    cct1 Well-Known Member
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    Yep, the plan was a before and after, which would have been much more useful, but it didn't work out. A stock MINI on Dan's dyno would look much different than on a dynapack, or dynajet for instance; using the stock numbers from a different dyno and trying to compare it to the Superflow isn't going to anywhere near a meaningful comparison. I've poked around trying to find Superflow dynos on other MINI's with no success. The dyno plot is just a single reference point pertaining to that particular dyno; maybe if there is a tuning day in the Midwest someday again I can put it on a dynapack and put up a sheet from a dyno people are more familiar with.
     
  18. minimark

    minimark Well-Known Member

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    #19 minimark, Aug 9, 2011
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2011
    Same old stuff, folks just can't or won't understand that you cannot compare graphs from one type of dyno to another, heck it's hard to even compare results from the same type dynos on different days and places.

    Yawn.....
     
  19. BlimeyCabrio

    BlimeyCabrio Oscar Goldman of MINIs
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    .... and the SpeedWerks dynapack..... ohhhhhhhh boy. :)
     
  20. ScottinBend

    ScottinBend Space Cowboy
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    OK.....let me make this clear.

    I don't care about comparing this to any other dyno, graph, plot or whatever. I was only wondering why there seems to be a fairly large difference between the HP and TQ numbers. I would have thought that they would have been a lot closer. See post 16 also.