Yeah, and anything that makes me agree with a union has got to be wrong on a whole lot of levels. It's basically a penalty to employers who've been doing the right thing and a slap in the face to employees who maybe turned down a better paying or more prestigious job to keep better benefits to them and their family.
Are foreigners allowed into this debate? I'm surprised Robin expressed any doubt about health care - everything I've seen suggests that the US achieves around the lowest health care outcomes across the whole population of any first world country, despite spending a bigger percentage of its GDP on health care than any other country. It would seem to be a superb system for the rich, but not that effective for the rest. This has to use fairly rough measures of health outcomes (eg, what is the probability that a baby will reach its first or fifth birthday) but these are decent measures that aren't easy to get wrong. Some numbers for the countries above for infant mortality (<1 year) - the mortality data is as quoted by the CIA (if that makes you trust or distrust it): USA 6.3 deaths/1000, healthcare 16% of GDP (45% by government) Netherlands 4.7 deaths/1000, healthcare 9.8% of GDP (66% by government) Japan 2.8 deaths/1000, healthcare 8.1% of GDP (82% by government) The assumption that involving the government in health care reduces either efficiency or quality doesn't seem to be true of other countries, so why must it be true in the US? Andrew
I don't think you can look at those numbers in a vacuum. There are many contributory factors which would require someone a lot smarter than me to analyze. Just off the top of my head: Immigrant population Teenage pregnancy rates Racial disparity. Some cultures believe in having larger family units, whether financially feasible, or not Child rearing as a function of an extended family unit. I know where I come from it was almost expected that grand parents would take a more active role in raising a child. More than just sending a Christmas card at least.
I'm in it, but I have a green card. And yes I will be getting my US citizenship when I've served my time as a legal immigrant. I firmly believe you can't whine if you don't vote. Mark
A HUGE contributor to this statistic is the very high teenage pregnancy rate in the US compared with the other countries, and the much higher infant mortality rates associated with such pregnancies. Don't even get me started on what policies I believe contribute to higher teenage pregnancy rates in the US than anywhere else in the developed world.....
Right. Our system is broken. It needs to be made more efficient and affordable. Insurance companies are a large part of the problem. They increase doctors costs significantly be the paperwork they demand and the BS they pull to try and avoid paying doctors. The proposed health care reform isn't about turning our health care system into a government run program like Canada. Private insurance will not be replaced. It will actually be increased. What has to happen is that it has to be regulated. It has to be pressured into making its bureaucracy more efficient, and treat its customers more fairly. Japan and The Netherlands are examples of systems where insurance companies are highly regulated, and the results are lower costs and more accessible health care for all.
I said "by some measurements" because infant mortality is often used as an example, but IMO, does not give an accurate picture of health care in the USA. The very rich have extremely good health care here. Some of our medical institutions are equal to or better than those in any other country. However, many of our middle and lower income folks have less excellent health care due to a number of factors. Some of them are due to limitations by their insurance companies or PPOs. Some of it is because of the large number of uninsured. Some because parts of the system are dysfunctional. The system does not do well at promoting good health through preventative measures. It only deals with people when they are at later stages where costs are higher and outcomes poorer. At the same time, our health care system costs us more than it does in other countries. We need to fix it.
The argument that the rich get better care is somewhat shrill in it's nature. They also live in better houses, drive better cars, wear better clothes and take more fun vacations more often. I think Paul brought up a point earlier in the discussion that there should be a base level of health insurance. Then those who can afford it can opt to buy more premium product as they saw fit.
I made this point earlier. Our system has a stealth way of paying for the uninsured. Health care providers charge insured patients to cover for them, and for the underpayment by Medicare. A government plan to get more people covered only changes how they are covered. It doesn't add them. Part of the reason for doing it is that the way it works now is inefficient, and drives up costs. Uninsured don't seek treatment until their situation becomes serious. That tends to require more drastic and more expensive treatments. If their condition was caught earlier it could be managed for less money and with better results. Exactly what aspect of the pending reform makes you think there will be these delays in health care? I don't see the logic. Government isn't imposing a Canadian system here. It will imposing regulations upon insurance companies, while expanding their customers by requiring more people to have insurance.
I keep trying to understand when healthcare became a "right" - and who made it a "right". According to our forefathers, "God" endowed us with the unalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Who endowed us with the right to healthcare, and when did this occur? Where does it fit in the "hierarchy of rights"? Is it OK to deprive someone else of life or liberty or pursuit of happiness as long as your "right" to healthcare is preserved? I'm very comfortable with healthcare being a "product" - like shelter, food, clothing, transportation, hockey tickets, lap dances, plasma TVs, Skittles, and many others. Like other products, not everyone can afford the best, and the laws of supply and demand apply, no matter who is paying for it. Though who pays for it can have a direct impact on the quality of product received and the cost of that product. If the majority determines that the "socially just" thing to do is to provide some base level of medical care for those who can't afford it, fine. I think we already have that - it's call Medicaid. As well as the uncompensated care described earlier in the thread. But when you start talking about 40% confiscatory tax rates on some so that others (up to 400% of the poverty level) can have their care subsidized, I believe that's encroaching on some of those God-endowed rights...
Keep reading here that the rich have great healthcare here as if everyone else doesn't. I AM NOT RICH but under the proposed healthcare reform I will be charged a surcharge tax on what they deem to be a Cadillac plan. The plan my wife and I have is paid for by our own sweat and hard work, we choose to invest our hard earned money on an insurance plan that will afford us the best care possible. Our God given right to use our posession in the manner we see fit. Good health insurance and care is a benefit of working hard and applying our minds to doing the very best we can in our chosen field. If we were to decide to drop our insurance plan and just start working say three days a week and go fishing four, do you think we are intitaled to the same healthcare we enjoy now, AT EVERY OTHER TAX PAYING CITIZENS EXPENSE? Here in lies the ultimate core failure in any Socialist society.... Please see fourth generation welfare recipients....
No, you are not entitled to the same care. But you will now need to be taxed on your excessive fishing. And should you fail to catch and release, there will be fines and penalties. And since you will be fishing four days a week, you will need a multi-day fishing license which will cost you more then the aggregate of buying individual days. All the extra fees will be used to support health care for those who really need it.
Wait a sec, that's not fair. I'm not much of a fisherman and don't catch alot... Don't really like getting that fishy stuff on my hands and having to clean the boat and all. So can't I get some kind of exemption from all those fishing fees and taxes? The folks that are actually catching fish should cover all the expenses to maintain the waterways and pay the wildlife people...:incazzato:
Well if I'm going to have to pay all those fishing fees, then I'm intitaled to some of the fish all those other guys are catching...It's only fair.
About this statement, "Exactly what aspect of the pending reform makes you think there will be these delays in health care? I don't see the logic.".Well it's black and white, most all health care systems are already at their limits, monetary wise and staff wise. For instance, Fresno has 5 hospitals, one is Kaiser Perm., they only treat people in their system and it is very busy. We have a Catholic hospital, that only treats people with insurance and it is medium in size. Then we have a VA hospital, nothing to be said here. We then have my companies hospitals, 2 of them are specialty surgery hospitals only and then there is the MAIN city/county hospital, which is already packed, BTW we just built the 3rd largest ER in the state a couple years ago and we already have people waiting for hours and are lining the halls in gurneys waiting for rooms. There is just not enough DR's and RN's to go around. Who is going to build the nessecary facilities to accommodate the HUGE influx of patients? I see you live in the Monterey area, a nice clean system like the goverment proposes may work in a limited evironment like that, and also in nations like the Netherlands and Japan, but the BIG city is going to be a different story. Your next statement, "It will imposing regulations upon insurance companies, while expanding their customers by requiring more people to have insurance.". Is this the way you meant to write it? Kinda mixed up. But anyway, do you really think the insurance companies are going sit around a lose money? My wife has worked for Nationwide/Allied insurance for over 20 years and they have been on the verge of closing several times. I know people love to trash the insurance companies, but they can't stay in business without making money. And who is going to be, "requiring more people to have insurance."? The goverment? The point is, people like free stuff, go to Costco, we will stand in line for a bite of cheesecake, if people know that they can go and get free medical care for any little ailment they will and then thats when the HUGE lines and HUGE wait times will begin.
Got this in an e-mail today, I have not verified each page/section myself... I ask you respectfully and as a patriotic American to look at the following troubling lines that I have read in the bill. You cannot possibly believe that these proposals are in the best interests of the country and our fellow citizens... READ THESE CAREFULLY AND JUST IMAGINE WHAT COULD RESULT ............. Page 22 of the HC Bill: Mandates that the Govt will audit books of all employers that self-insure!! Page 30 Sec 123 of HC bill: THERE WILL BE A GOVT COMMITTEE that decides what treatments/benefits you get. Page 29 lines 4-16 in the HC bill: YOUR HEALTH CARE IS RATIONED!!! Page 42 of HC Bill: The Health Choices Commissioner will choose your HC benefits for you. You have NO choice! Page 50 Section 152 in HC bill: HC will be provided to ALL non-US citizens........... illegal or otherwise. Page 58 HC Bill: Govt will have real-time access to individuals' finances & a 'National ID Health card' WILL be issued! Page 59 HC Bill lines 21-24: Govt will have DIRECT ACCESS to your bank accounts for ELECTIVE funds transfer. Page 65 Sec 164: Is a payoff subsidized plan for retirees and their families in unions & community organizations: (ACORN). Page 84 Sec 203 HC bill: Govt mandates ALL benefit packages for private HC plans in the 'Exchange.' Page 85 Line 7 HC Bill: Specifications of Benefit Levels for Plans--The Govt WILL ration your health care! Page 91 Lines 4-7 HC Bill: Govt mandates linguistic appropriate services. (Translation: illegal aliens.) Page 95 HC Bill Lines 8-18: The Govt will use groups (i.e. ACORN & Americorps) to sign up individuals for Govt HC plan. Page 85 Line 7 HC Bill: Specifications of Benefit Levels for Plans. (AARP members - your health care WILL be rationed!) Page 102 Lines 12-18 HC Bill: Medicaid eligible individuals will be automatically enrolled in Medicaid. ( NO choice.) Page 12 4 lines 24-25 HC: No company can sue GOVT on price fixing. No "judicial review" against Govt monopoly. Page 127 Lines 1-16 HC Bill: Doctors/American Medical Association - The Govt WILL TELL YOU what salary you can make. Page 145 Line 15-17: An Employer MUST auto-enroll employees into public option plan. (NO choice!) Page 126 Lines 22-25: Employers MUST pay for HC for part-time employees AND their families. (Employees shouldn't get excited about this as employers will be forced to reduce its work force, benefits, and wages/salaries to cover such a huge expense.) UNSUSTAINABLE. Page 149 Lines 16-24: ANY Employer with payroll 401k & above who does not provide public option will pay 8% tax on all payroll! (See the last comment in parenthesis.) Page 150 Lines 9-13:A business with payroll between $251K & $401K who doesn't provide public option will pay 2-6% tax on all payroll. Page 167 Lines 18-23: ANY individual who doesn't have acceptable HC according to Govt will be taxed 2.5% of income.. Page 170 Lines 1-3 HC Bill: Any NONRESIDENT Alien is EXEMPT from individual taxes. (Americans will pay.) Page 195 HC Bill: Officers & employees of the GOVT HC Admin.. WILL HAVE ACCESS to ALL Americans' finances and personal records. Page 203 Line 14-15 HC: "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax." (Yes, it really says that!) Page 239 Line 14-24 HC Bill: Govt will reduce physician services for Medicaid Seniors. (Low-income and the poor are affected.) Page 241 Line 6-8 HC Bill: Doctors: It doesn't matter what specialty you have trained yourself in -- you will all be paid the same! (Just TRY to tell me that's not Socialism!) Page 253 Line 10-18: The Govt sets the value of a doctor's time, profession, judgment, etc. (Literally -- the value of humans.) Page 265 Sec 1131: The Govt mandates and controls productivity for "private" HC industries. Page 268 Sec 1141: The federal Govt regulates the rental and purchase of power driven wheelchairs. Page 272 SEC. 1145: TREATMENT OF CERTAIN CANCER HOSPITALS - Cancer patients - welcome to rationing! Page 280 Sec 1151: The Govt will penalize hospitals for whatever the Govt deems preventable (i.e... re-admissions). Page 298 Lines 9-11: Doctors: If you treat a patient during initial admission that results in a re-admission -- the Govt will penalize you. Page 317 L 13-20: PROHIBITION on ownership/investment. (The Govt tells doctors what and how much they can own!) Page 317-318 lines 21-25, 1-3: PROHIBITION on expansion. (The Govt is mandating that hospitals cannot expand.) Page 321 2-13: Hospitals have the opportunity to apply for exception BUT community input is required. (Can you say ACORN?) Page 335 L 16-25 Pg 336-339: The Govt mandates establishment of 2 outcome-based measures... (HC the way they want -- rationing.) Page 341 Lines 3-9: The Govt has authority to disqualify Medicare Advance Plans, HMOs, etc. (Forcing people into the Govt plan) Page 354 Sec 1177: The Govt will RESTRICT enrollment of 'special needs people!' Unbelievable! Page 379 Sec 1191: The Govt creates more bureaucracy via a "Tele-Health Advisory Committee." (Can you say HC by phone?) Page 425 Lines 4-12: The Govt mandates "Advance-Care Planning Consult." (Think senior citizens end-of-life patients.) Page 425 Lines 17-19: The Govt will instruct and consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney, etc. (And it's mandatory!) Page 425 Lines 22-25, 426 Lines 1-3: The Govt provides an "approved" list of end-of-life resources; guiding you in death. (Also called 'assisted suicide.') Page 427 Lines 15-24: The Govt mandates a program for orders on "end-of-life." (The Govt has a say in how your life ends!) Page 429 Lines 1-9: An "advanced-care planning consultant" will be used frequently as a patient's health deteriorates. Page 429 Lines 10-12: An "advanced care consultation" may include an ORDER for end-of-life plans.. (AN ORDER TO DIE FROM THE GOVERNMENT?!?) Page 429 Lines 13-25: The GOVT will specify which doctors can write an end-of-life order. (I wouldn't want to stand before God after getting paid for THAT job!) Page 430 Lines 11-15: The Govt will decide what level of treatment you will have at end-of-life! (Again -- no choice!) Page 469: Community-Based Home Medical Services = Non-Profit Organizations. (Hello? ACORN Medical Services here!?!) Page 489 Sec 1308: The Govt will cover marriage and family therapy. (Which means Govt will insert itself into your marriage even.) Page 494-498: Govt will cover Mental Health Services including defining, creating, and rationing those services.
You have now so stressed me mentally that I'm unable to continue working three days a week and will have to go on disability.....:crazy: