Brakes Wheels 1st Gen Tires Most liked posts in thread: Heat shielding brake shims

:eek6::eek6::eek6:

$86 for four small 0.5 mm-thick titanium plates? That's ridiculous. There's no mass, and the titanium will conduct heat better than the brake pad itself. There's no cooling effect whatsoever. Don't waste your money.

 

Seems like you could take a sheet of perforated SS, trace the outline of the pad, and slip them between the pad and piston. The perforations would reduce the surface contact area and equally reduce thermal transmission?

 

More like an anti squeal shim. All the heat is coming from the rotors.

 

This isn't the first time I've seen this type of product

but I haven't ever used them or taken any data on them.

And if all the heat were in the rotors, then fluid would never boil! There's heat all over the place with brakes. An interesting thought would be Ti pistons! Then you'd get the lower thermal conductivity for sure.

Matt

 

Check these out:

Sneed's Speed Shop - MINI Cooper Parts (at the bottom of the page)

 

Leave if to Chris to find those sweet brakes.....but $10,000.00 for brakes on my Mini, way to rich for my blood.

But if I win the lotto I'll be calling them as soon as I get off the phone with Ferrari!!!!!!

 

Ok, not all the heat is in the rotors but I rather touch the caliper than a rotor after a long run, just saying .....

 

These shields have been used for a while and I know some that swear by them. No personal experience, but you can't say the don't work.

 

Let's assume that they work.
Ok, now you have a thermal insulator between the pad and the caliper.

This means the pads and rotors will be much hotter and the caliper will be cooler.
- If your only problem is boiling brake fluid then this may help you.
- On the other hand, this product may worsen an overheating pad situation and so may make things much much worse.

You can't cheat the heat. :^) It is going to go somewhere!

One of the primary goals of all BBKs is to increase mass and surface area such that the heat can be dissipated. Trying to thermally isolate specific brake system components will only exacerbate the heat elsewhere.

So, do they work, uh I dunno, but if they were installed on my car I sure would not want them to work!

That being said, I am sure there are some specific brake system applications where these could have value. However, I do not see that need for MINI OEM brakes. One size does not fit all for a product like this, and I am not talking pad dimensions.

 

Pretty much my thoughts, you would be isolating the heat transfer and dissipation more. Maybe keep the calipers cooler at the expense of the pads and rotors. Rob Peter to pay Paul and end up with overheated pads.

 

Hmmmmmm........
What if.........????
Let's say the brake example in question has brake rotors and brake pads that can handle the heat (maybe even handle a little extra heat) with no problems. But the weak link is the boiling of the brake fluid and the resulting soft pedal and loss of brakes. Maybe these "titanium insulators" are enough to prevent the brake fluid from reaching that critical boiling point and the resulting shifting of the heat direction is of an amount that can be handled by the pads and rotors through their normal dissipation process.

Soooooo....... resulting in a better braking system?:idea:
Brake experts????

 

Sure, in this scenario, in this special case, these insulators may help with the boiling fluid. However, most would just go one step up in their brake fluid boiling point.

For example, in my '06 JCW car with MINI 1st gen JCW BBK, I use Motul RBF 600 fluid and have NEVER boiled the fluid. I have generated enough heat to smear pads on the rotors, throw weights off the wheels, and scorch the pretty red JCW paint on the calipers, but the fluid never boils.

So, for my OEM brake system, of course not OEM pads, maybe these insulators would have helped the caliper paint to last a little longer, but I would have paid for it in brake fade as I was already pushing the limit with Carbotech XP-10 pads.

 

Well..... There you go.:cornut:

 

Like anything in racing, it's all part of a package that works in harmony.
Use these on the street or track days? Most likely not. But on a pure built race car? Yes.
Gotta think beyond your own experiences. Unless you have tried them, or a friend has tried them then I don't understand the speculating if they are a good idea or not. I know people who have used them for years, but these are usually smaller cars like formula and sports races, not that bigger cars don't. Just don't know any.

 

Seems like one of those things you might use if you are encountering certain problems other measures haven't or will not solve. If I'm racing or tracking and we just can't keep the fluid from boiling then we'd be giving them a try for certain....

 

Has anyone try this product?

I was just wondering if some of you actually try products or at least call manufactures inquiring about their products before dis(ing)missing them...lol


I see what some have had installed for performance parts and really question what endorsements you can really respond with? lol
Their is starting to be a small group forming a pattern of negative responses having to do with products introduced here on M/A? With no actual experience with testing/trying the parts yet giving testimony as to why they can't work, or by way of 2nd/3rd hand information claim foul? The same few coincidentally are not even Supporting M/A members? Makes you go hmmmmmm???

The shims work! Get over it already!....They may not give the performance level you personally expect or the price range within your budget for MINI upgrades. They even may go against your personal belief on how something should be represented in an ad? The material and physics behind the chosen material (TITANIUM) used should be clue enough to realize how the product may work in its application. Duh?

minimark let me help you a bit.... the D1204 TITANIUM (***T-I-T-A-N-I-U-M) Brake Heat Shielding Shim for MINI Cooper is made with TITANIUM.
Properties of TITANIUM makes it an excellent material choice for the MINI brake pads shim. As an example when welding with TITANIUM it cools so fast that you can physically touch the materiel welded immediately without getting burned. The term used here is TITANIUM has a very high "Thermal Conductivity"
TITANIUM 30%stronger than steel and 45% lighter.TITANIUM is 60% heavier than aluminum but twice as strong.
The aerospace industry is the single largest market for TITANIUM products. TITANIUM applications are most significant in jet engine and airframe components that are subject to temperatures up to 1100 °F. More heat than a MINI brake component.

For automotive applications, TITANIUM used for engine valves, connecting rods, wheel-rim screws, exhaust systems, and suspension springs AND BRAKE PAD SHIMS FOR MINIS. TITANIUM engine components increase horsepower and torque while improving fuel economy and solving problems with noise and
vibration. When used as a MINI brake pad shim, TITANIUM reduces material weight approximately 50% compared to traditional shims and substantially increases product life and reduces by way of "Thermal Conductivity" any heat to the shim.

Please everyone do your research before dis(ing)missing a product without having first learned about its application,construction and composition or at least tried it out yourself. It gets so old reading responses from the few uninformed/inexperienced product forum experts. :frown2:

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
***http://periodic.lanl.gov/elements/22.html

Atomic Number: 22 Atomic Radius: 144.8 pm
Atomic Symbol: Ti Melting Point: 1668 �C
Atomic Weight: 47.90 Boiling Point: 3287 �C
Electron Configuration: [Ar]4s23d2 Oxidation States: 4,3,2
History

(Latin. titans, the first sons of the Earth, mythology)

Discovered by Gregor in 1791; named by Klaproth in 1795. Impure titanium was prepared by Nilson and Pettersson in 1887; however, the pure metal (99.9%) was not made until 1910 when Hunter heated TiCl4 with sodium in a steel bomb.
Sources

Titanium is present in meteorites and the sun. Rocks obtained during the Apollo 17 lunar mission showed presence of 12.1% TiO2; rocks obtained during earlier Apollo missions show lower percentages.

Titanium oxide bands are prominent in the spectra of M-type stars. The element is the ninth most abundant in the crust of the earth. Titanium is almost always present in igneous rocks and in the sediments derived from them.

It occurs in the minerals rutile, ilmenite, and sphene, and is present in titanates and in many iron ores. Titanium is present in ash of coal, in plants, and in human body.

The metal was a laboratory curiosity until Kroll, in 1946, showed that titanium could be produced commercially by reducing titanium tetrachloride with magnesium. This method is still largely used for producing the metal. The metal can be purified by decomposing the iodide.
Properties

Titanium, when pure, is a lustrous, white metal. It has a low density, good strength, is easily fabricated, and has excellent corrosion resistance. It is ductile only when it is free of oxygen. The metal, which burns in air, is the only element that burns in nitrogen.

Titanium is resistant to dilute sulfuric and hydrochloric acid, most organic acids, most chlorine gas, and chloride solutions.

Natural titanium is reported to become very radioactive after bombardment with deuterons. The emitted radiations are mostly positrons and hard gamma rays. The metal is dimorphic. The hexagonal alpha form changes to the cubic beta form very slowly at about 880oC. The metal combines with oxygen at red heat, and with chlorine at 550oC.

Titanium metal is considered to be physiologically inert. When pure, titanium dioxide is relatively clear and has an extremely high index of refraction with an optical dispersion higher than diamond.
Isotopes

Natural titanium consists of five isotopes with atomic masses from 46 to 50. All are stable. Eight other unstable isotopes are known.
Uses

Titanium is important as an alloying agent with aluminum, molybdenum, manganese, iron, and other metals. Alloys of titanium are principally used for aircraft and missiles where lightweight strength and ability to withstand extremes of temperature are important.

Titanium is as strong as steel, but 45% lighter. It is 60% heavier than aluminum, but twice as strong.

Titanium has potential use in desalination plants for converting sea water into fresh water. The metal has excellent resistance to sea water and is used for propeller shafts, rigging, and other parts of ships exposed to salt water. A titanium anode coated with platinum has been used to provide cathodic protection from corrosion by salt water.

It is produced artificially for use as a gemstone, but it is relatively soft. Star sapphires and rubies exhibit their asterism as a result of the presence of TiO2.

Titanium dioxide is extensively used for both house paint and artist's paint, because it is permanent and has good covering power. Titanium oxide pigment accounts for the largest use of the element. Titanium paint is an excellent reflector of infrared, and is extensively used in solar observatories where heat causes poor viewing conditions.

Titanium tetrachloride is used to iridize glass. This compound fumes strongly in air and has been used to produce smoke screens.
Costs

The price of titanium metal powder (99.95%) is about $100/lb.

 

Hmmmm

if it had higher thermal conductivity it wouldn't work at all...

[ame=http://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=806397&postcount=3]Physics Forums - View Single Post - Metal alloys thermal conductivity[/ame]

Pure Ti has a thermal conductivity that is similar to a lot of other metals (about 17 of some funky unit). The alloy listed here has a lower conductivity (6.7).

There are also temp effects. Check out for 316 ss, and this one is for Ti alloy.

Anyway, pure Ti looks like it wouldn't be a winner, but the Ti alloy looks like it would be.

As to the comments about people guessing and not getting in touch with manufacturers, I'll just let that one be!

Matt

 

Cheese Whiz....I try to get some work done and some of y'all go insane with posting a bunch of stuff we don't need.

Lynn, you are confusing me, in some posts you tell people to go research stuff and then in this one you put up so much info about Titanium that Wikipedia is blushing.

Bench Racing and the discussion of theory is part of life, M/A and the American Way. It is not going to go away. The points that all sides in this bring up are for the most part quite salient, you are moving the heat around and not discussing that is a disservice to all. Sure, some of the people thinking it may not work well have not performed empirical testing, but why dismiss their views, we all have ideas and M/A is a medium to share and discuss.

If one does have brake fluid boiling issues then this might be a way to prevent that, but at what expense. Has that individual with the fluid boiling issues explored other avenues first, like flushing the system and using a better quality fluid? There are lot other steps I would take in diagnosing and fixing the source of such an issue before shelling out the bucks for shims. I would want the calipers to become heated to a point as that is yet another location to shed some heat off the rotors.

So please keep an open mind to all solutions and do not toss out anyone's thoughts just because there is not empirical testing with data displayed. Sometimes experience and talking a problem out can lead to interesting solutions.

 

The downside of this approach

is that one creates the echo chamber where the majority view carries the day, independant of any facts or the like. This is the downside to discussions on the internet. I've been reemed tons of times for actually putting in some data or facts into internet discussions where I'm accused of being insensitive to the opinions of others. If enough people in an on-line discussion want to say that 2+2=5, then you can bet this new "fact" will permeate and diffuse into other boards and the like. So there are two sides to that coin for sure.

Anyway, I did learn something today in looking some stuff up... That is that alloys of metal typically have lower thermal conductivity than one would "predict" based on an algebreic average of the thermal conductivities of the consituant metals. Makes sense on an atomic scale, but I'd never really thought about it.

For those that want to know why this makes sense: read on.... So thermal conductivity is the collisions of vibrating atoms. But this isn't the pool-ball model of atoms, it's more the ball-spring model where the ball is the atom, and the spring is the interatomic bonds. In pure materials, you can have a well ordered latice with each and every atom well linked to neighbors. In alloys, because of the different sizes of atoms and the like, the lattices are not well formed and the linkage between the atoms is not as good. So the motion of one atom doesn't propogate as well into its neighbors, and you have poorer thermal conductivity.

BTW, this is why diamond is one of the best thermal conductors known.....

Back to the standard internet debate....

Matt