How to Destory a Thread ...was...The Truth About Valvesprings!

so you say it bogged down up there............

well.......what was it? You just said it bogged down.........

the rotrex does have an advantage, maybe you should educate yourself before inserting foot into.........

 

...mouth.

Funny that when one watches TV or reads magazines that just about all the major automotive manufacturers such as Audi, Mercedes, BMW, Porsche and Mazda to name a few and automotive products manufacturers of all kinds spend not only millions of dollars on the track but also millions of dollars on touting their envolvement in racing as a way to improve and make their products better on the street......

Have they been wasting their money, has this all been a ruse?

 

Thanks to one person this has all gone to hell.

Need some time to think of how to deal with all this. Only on 1st cup of coffee...

Thread closed till I can calm down and deal with it in a proper manner.

 

Thread has been reopened.

Some thoughts by me, take it as you will.

Racing does improve the breed, there is no denying that. The question in my mind is do you want to have the latest bleeding edge bits on a street car. Remember these manufacturer based race teams have tons of testing under their belts before most of these parts turn a wheel in anger.

That being said the valve springs in question here are based on proven technology, just new to the MINI realm. We all take and build from whats known in other areas of the automotive world.

I personally see a product like these valve springs as one of those little details that helps. MINI engineers have to make cost/value compromises and for 99.9% of us the OEM valve springs work just fine. There are those that are looking to go the next level and are willing to spend the money for the potential small gains. Its the same many other hobbies. I like to experiment with different tube makes in my amp. The OEM ones are perfectly fine but when I use a 50's era New Old Stock (NOS) Russian made one there are some very slight differences I can hear, but when others listen unless I point to the very slight differences they hear the same with either set.

So who is going to be the one that does the following in one day at one session?

Dyno car as it sits
Change the valve springs from OEM to beehive ones.
Dyno the car again.

 

Nate.. dynos will show a bit of power differences, and torque. But it wont show the Harmonics, that over a period of time has PROVEN to be a dis advantage, or spring failure. The manufactures of the SPRING have done the work, the harmonics verifying, the destructive power of said harmonics. The BEEHIVE spring IS NOW in OEM Performance engines.. Ford/ Chevy/ Nissan/ Subaru .. etc. In the Performance Engine , whether American or Rice, or the Eu. the new design Beehive or conical, is becoming the spring of Choice!

The opening POST was to show a few that there is now a new design spring ( actually 10 years old now) that is available for the MINI. And offer it up as a deal for those looking for an optional spring.

All though the sound of 'Dyno', is always a good thing ( until even the dyno can be challenged). AND if a person that buys the spring .. NEEDS to run a dyno ( $150.00 ) install the springs ( 385.00 + plus the labor), then DYNO again ( 150.00 ) just to prove to a few what the manufacture has ALREADY PROVEN thru THEIR design and R&D, seems to be a foolish way to disclaim results. Not to say expensive to the driver.

AS the r53 and r50s become more into professional Racing, there will be a lot of other products coming out. The Idea, that in order to suggest the benefit of, or the reliability of, or use for, is to run a dyno... is just plain idiotic. This is the ONLY platform where a few people try to challenge a new product by Dyno. And Most of the viewing public KNOWS this.

IF you feel the stock spring set is good, then this is just an informative thread. IF you have been waiting for a new spring design to help push you engine further.. then this thread could be your answer. Kudos to Dr.0 for posting the information... however, it ISNT the only article written on the beehive/ conical springs and their benefits.. check it out yourself.

Thanks Nate!!

Just me........................................

Thumper


PS: some costs: ( there are no sets JUST for the r50/r53) other than the sets offered by Dr.O and myself.) springs $215.00 to $249.00 a set of 16. Titianium retainers: $200.00- 285.00 !! of course you can find deals.. this is just an idea IF there were any out there on the market!!
Thumper

 

True comparison would be to have three sets of springs: #1 being a new set off OEM springs, #2 Matt's springs and #3 a set of supertech springs.

A comparison between a new set of Matt's springs and a set of OEM's with about 60,000 miles on them would hardly be fair....

If the vendors cover the cost of the springs, installation and dyno time in the interest of the Mini community I will donate my time and car for the test comparison. And yes I would want to be able to keep the winner...

Dan at Grassroots garage in Thomasville could do the work and just around the corner from him is SpeedWerks where Andy the owner could conduct the Dyno pulls. Please note that SpeedWerks is a Porsche racing shop so he would have no dog in this fight.

The two loosing spring sets could be auctioned off and the proceeds donated to a charity of the members here choosing in M/A's name....

 

Motoring Alliance will donate $100 to this cause with the caveat that any references to the test are linked back to M/A.

I also have a set of OEM Springs sitting in a box on the shelf in the garage with only about 1200 miles on them that can be used if needed.

 

Please note my edit at the bottom.

 

Really hate to get back into this but why should Jan and his boys always get the last word? Dude if you could read I said, "well NOT to say it bogged down up there". So
I repeat, it did not bog down. And "maybe you should educate yourself before inserting foot into.........", as you have proven you know nothing about valve spring technology.

 

jimiinni, I really hate to point fingers..we have moved on, please do the same and lets look at the constructive aspect of the thread.

Your patience and support in this manner are appreciated.

 

this is exactly why the people SELLING the product should test it first. It's not the public's job to do it for THEM! I'm sorry but I have paid thousands of dollars dyno testing parts to make sure they work. Then money testing them on the track.

I just can't see the consumer spending money without some form of proof. That ......... is just IDIOTIC imho. I really don't understand why offering SOME form of proof is so hard? If it truly works then what's the harm?

Dyno's were invented to test cars in a way that gives scientific data behind it. Not using a tool like this to make your parts better is bad judgement or worse.

I guess this is where OUR differences lie. I'm willing to test parts before selling them and you aren't. Using the excuse that this part works great on another vehicle just doesn't cut it. People are buying parts for THEIR Mini not some V-8 warrior.

I tested a twinscrew for months now.......guess what......even though I had orders for over 20 of them right now. I'm not selling it because it DIDN'T pass MY testing. Was it better than stock? Sure, but not up to the standards of what I think people will expect for the money spent. I catch a bunch of flak but none of you are privy to all of the products we test. I can guarantee it would make most of your heads spin.

just my .02 for a better product

thanks for listening to my point of view
jan

 

The testing of these springs has well been established throughout the industry.

FACT: The PAC spring are used in 90% of the engines in NHRA . While not publicized because of politics in NASCAR the PSI spring is notably the advertised predominate user but I think we may see this in car sponsorship contingency and not actual physical use? This is what was hinted to me by PAC spring. Most in professional racing teams are not going to divulge what is in their engines anyway.
There is and has always been a cost factor to offering beehive springs. Unless you are buying thousands at a time to get the deep discounts it makes the springs expensive to offer on a performance production head for a MINI. The company Crower Cams & Equipment that uses PAC as their #1 spring and is one of PAC’s largest if not the biggest buyer of their springs. So MM gets them at a cost value to offer an affordable retail NS Spring kit through suppliers.
FES Auto : Resellers
Searching other car forums although mostly V-8 related you will see the rave is Beehive springs. And you would also find that more “butt” dyno reports about the feel are reported over actual chassis dyno reports. And not one MINI parts supplier does the proper( or has ever posted) testing of engine parts which would be on an engine dyno . DYNO manufacture suppliers will tell you that the use of chassis dyno’s are for hp wars and to help adjust by way tuning for more power. Not to test individual parts performance levels.
The Beehive spring technology is not new to the performance world or the benefits of using them along with Titanium Retainers only new for the R50/R53 Chrysler 1.6 MINI engine.


The testing of these springs has well been established throughout the industry.

Information website:
Crower.com | Welcome to Crower Cams and Equipment Co. Inc
PAC Racing Springs - The world's premier valve spring manufacturer.
Dynapack Chassis Dynamometers
Mustang Dynamometer / Mustang Advanced Engineering
DYNOmite Dynamometer - Chassis Dyno & Engine Dynamometer...

 

I hear all sides on this and the same thing is being said over and over again.

The trick now is to how to move forward, not rehash the same thing again and again.

If you have nothing new to add then this is the time to keep the keys from clinking.

 

Well if you noticed I said, Jan's race products don't mean crap for our cars. Duh... race products help all car products....I mean look at Cosworth....one of top engine builder's, if not the top builder in F1 history.

 

Some days it's good to be king...

Closed again whilst I fashion a response.

 

Just as it comes to me in no particular order.

Ya'll, for the most part have kept me from getting anything done today. In fact when I woke up at like 4am to relive myself I made the mistake of looking at the email on the phone. The next few hours of sleep were not fitful, I had nightmares about reported posts and PM's only to wake to same.

jimmini - Thanks for being the one that installed these first. However, I have huge doubts in your inherent ability to feel a difference. You are not a trained test driver and the differences these springs could offer even by Doc O's own stated hypothetical gains can easily be an ambient temp difference. Butt Dynos are calibrated by Credit Card dents. I'm sorry, I just can't comfortably rely on your reports in this matter.

Doc O - I'm not doubting the beehive spring is a better mousetrap. These using them in racing circles whether straight line, oval or turning both ways would not go the the extra expense if there was not a positive influence. But these are the same people that are looking to eek out every single potential gain, often to extremes of what is needed to get to the store of a 6 pack and back.

Thumper - Theory is good and all, but selling based on theory with no real world data on the engine we use is only going to make people question it more. Test, Prove, Sell, then get the testimonials from the client. To small to afford the testing, get more people to use the product quietly, when there is a user base that have shown there is a positive effect then the full press marketing.

Nitrominis - You are to close, this is yet another NS branded product. We've discussed that you need to let the sales channels disseminate the info. There are times to walk away and let others be the mouthpiece, this is again one of those times.

Jan - If Nitrominis invented water you would drink anything but. Let face it, no matter what it is that has even a scent of Lynn's involvement you will not be open to it. Be that as it may there is a time and place. Your heads have supertech springs I believe. they work well but there may be a better alternative. Now someone will point out I had a spring break in a RMW head. I'll counter with "yeah so". It was one and it happens, I also broke a wheel at the hub, not every item is always perfect, things break. I can't point the finger at Jan on this. How many other Supertech springs out there work fine day after day. So if anyone wants to use my one broken spring as fodder, not gonna float.

Now as to the springs themselves. We as a population keep finding new and improved ways of doing things. Just look at Laundry Detergents, they are always being improved. We now use a product that is safer for the environment, uses less packaging and does a better a job at cleaning our clothes while using less of the product. The same can be said about spring technology. New shapes in wire and overall design give us stronger materials that are lighter and more efficient. While the transfer from NHRA to a tracked MINI is a long stretch the fact is the technology transfer happens and it is better for all in the long run.

So where are we now...

We have a product that may benefit a few right now. It makes sense to test and try these springs if you have the wherewithal to do so. To me they are no brainer if I had the cash and the need. First off they are lighter in weight. This is a good thing as it reduces the mass that has to stop, change direction start, accelerate to top velocity thousands of times a minute. If my math is correct each spring does this 1250 times per minute at 5000 RPM. I have no qualms in being corrected here.

There are other inherent gains that have been proven on other engines. It does behoove us to try it on the engine we use to see if there gains over the status quo at the same price point.

A testing session has been put on the table. I've offered, through M/A, $100 to help out and loan a set of OEM springs if needed. I'll also help write the article.

Now is the time to rise above egos and do something to advance the bar.