Suspension Brakes 1st Gen Most liked posts in thread: Installing new camber plates resulted in a new problem!!!

Matt, First, do understand my intension here is just to create some open thinking and not to make any kind of big issue out of this. I just have a few things to comment on.

I work with a bunch of race cars that in fact have all solid hiem style rod end suspension. I'm not sure where this tale of Hiem joints being noisy comes from. This is not directed at you Matt, but it's just something I hear all the time on the Mini forums. If in fact anyone's Hiems are making noise then they are either faulty or just used up, or most likely not installed right. Maybe bad spacer/bushings being used. I don't believe any one has ever mentioned, or looked into the fact that the Mini's factory rear control arm bolts are not compatible with the hiem style rod ends. They are not, and this likely could be the common issue.

But back on race cars. Hiem type suspension is very quiet and VERY free floating. If anyone finds their's are not then you have other issues.



OK, on the hard plastic bushings, ..yes I had that video. I do believe I was most concerned with the ability to correctly tune in suspension rebound then any other factor. Anyone using an aftermarket coilover, or shock with rebound adjustment will find it very frustrating to get rebound tuned in at all with this everchanging suspension resistance or binding. I asked you the question of "At what point does the movement limitations become a problem " because I kind of want to make a point. If real real stiff poly, or maybe even Delrin is considered the breaking point, as I know it in fact is, then why would anything that is in between that and a spherical, which I see as the best option out there, acceptable? Of course it would be cost and "daily driver" dependability I would think. Otherwise I'm not sure why a bushing that takes 100lbs of dead weight on the control arm to actually move it a few inches could be considered acceptable in any way.

Just my thoughts, respectfully. :beer

 

We weren't talking price, so it shouldn't be taken into account for what we are talking about.

The PF does not limit movement. It is a two peice design allowing the CA to rotate freely....
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So I have heard, but I have no first hand experience. See, the word "rotate" just not apply in the motion of the front control arm. It does not really "rotate"

I'd actually would love to see a set of the PFs in motion. Anyone?

 

Couple things...

BMW/MINI has done something very odd in thier front control arm design, I don't know if it's wisdom or cost. But because of using a planar geometry for the control arm, and having the inner ball joint bolt to it, the lower control arm pivot axis is not co-linear or axial with the rear bushing shaft. This means that at the pivot point, it goes in a wierd arc that requires a complient bush. Sucks, but there you have it.

Greg, I totally get fine tuning the rebound and it making the job harder. I was thinking about this while driving the kids around today (Alison starts 1st grade on Monday, so there was lots of back to school stuff to do today). It did occure to me that with stiff springs that are close to (or beyond) unloaded, the dominat force at full extension is the bushing, when the sway bars are not taken into account. So with the arm uncoupled from the anti-sway bar, you get a really funky looking force vs deflection curve. But then, with a stiff spring that uses helpers, you have a funky looking curve anyway.

But once you bolt the arm to the anti-sway bar, then the anti-sway bar torque becomes a much larger force, and the force to deflect the bushing becomes a bit player once again. This is because when it's really in play, with extreme cornering forces, the outside is compressed and the inside is exteneded, and the anti-sway bar is lifting on the inside wheel much more than the bush deflection force anyway.

But once again, this is in the realm of stuff that is really only an issue for hard core competition, and really has no bearing on street driving, or HPDEs or club events, so it's more philosophical than anything esle.

For the two piece poly's the innner part has a hexagonal hole that goes onto the shaft. The outside of this is cylindrical, and can twist in the outper part of the bushing. So while the harndess of the poly does create a bit of a resistance to deflection, you don't have nearly as much as the solid BA style that have both deflection and a lot of torsional resistance.

The stock rubber bush even has some resistance to deflection, but they keep it so low as to be totally inconsiquential. But then, it's so soft that the rear axis back there moves all over the place, with all the problems that come with it.

Because of the design of the control arm, there has to be some compramise in the bushing design. Choose your poisen! Yeah, I think the BA bush is the worst of the aftermarket lot, but I'd still chose it over the stocker.

As far as the Heim joints, we can leave that debate for another day!

Matt

 

Dont' take this wrong

but it seems that you are hell bent on replacing every part of the whole suspension for a car that you say is going to only see very limited track duty. I think you are spending tons of money that you don't need to (but that's OK, it's your money and if you want to that's fine by me). Why get new stock control arms? Those suckers are really, really strong and should last forever! That's just money down the drain....

Please consider spending much more time on learning and getting coached on driving before breaking out the credit card. Every experienced driver says that to those that are starting to learn and mod, and every person who learns and mods pretty much ignores them!

Anyway, when you find that you're reaching the limits of what the car can do, then spend some money to improve that area.

I guess to put it another way, the only think I see missing from your list is some patience!

Matt

Oh, and the roll center spacers have an inhearent trade-off. You get decreased roll-couple at the price of more bump steer. If you are on very flat and smooth surfaces, that may be OK, but if your on normal roads, it may not be a trade that you want to make....

 

Wise words Dr. O

It is cool adding new "stuff" to your MINI don't get me wrong. Done a fair bit myself

I learned more about performance driving in ONE HPDE than I had gathered from 25+ years of driving. Can't wait to do more! :cornut:

Fine example-Young kid scraped up the $300 and showed up at my first HPDE in a stock first gen Dodge Neon 4 Dr. Toward the end he was embarrassing many cars far more expensive much less far more modified

 

One other thing..

if you must do the roll center adjustment, cobble together a bump steer kit. I think John Petrich in the Peuget Sound chapter of the BMWCCA did that. Mosey over to thier web site. I think he posted up about where he got his parts, but it wasn't cheap to do.

And one thing that is missing from the list for sure is one or two books on car suspensions!

Matt

 

A quick note on the mixing the TSW Damper and Engine Mount. No need to do so, the mount supplants the need to add the damper as well. Save a few buck to put towards that track day.

 

Here's a suggestion....... for what it's worth.
As long as your old control arms have not been bent (accident or Huge Chuck Hole), You can have them sandblasted and powder coated. Your finished product will be better than the new OEM, as the powder coating is going to be much thicker than the paint that comes on the new part. The powder coated part will better withstand rock chips, salt and cinders or what ever they throw down in the winter in your neck of the woods. You will come out ahead $ wise, that can be better spent elsewhere. Hey, they can even do blue if you want.

 

Apocalypse alert....

Hey Doc.... Oh no it's happened again! We are agreeing. :beer

Listen to the good Doctor, he speaketh the truth. :yesnod:

We need a $ with wings emoticon...

Seat time is the best way to make your car faster. Fix what is broken & spend some money on track time. You'll love it!

 

I'll just note that in fact the Mini front control arms do suffer here in the northeast. I have seen some kinda scary rust situations with them, mostly around the inner ball joint area.

 

Why not just buy a new car? :confused5:

 

You are in a great location for track days. Join the BMWCCA and you will be in the Boston Chapter. The Boston Chapter and the White mountain chapter hold some of the better run and more fun track day, HPDEs in the northeast. You will fall in love with doing this if you enjoy pushing your car a bit.

 

The BMWCCA runs lots of good stuff

here in the Bay Area, they run Car Control Clinics, Teen Driving events, HPDEs as well as autoX. I'm not familiar with the Boston Area for track event organizers, but I'm sure that there are many that are availabe. As far as "getting ready" for them, making sure the car is sound, even if stock, and that you have the required safety gear (helmet etc) is really all you need to do! Then get out there and drive! It's totally fun, and like others have pointed out, after your first event learing serious technical driving technique, you will never, ever approach a turn the same way.

All the stuff that we bolt onto our cars isn't really needed at all to get going. Really, the chassis is much more capable than many imagine out of the box. For me, cause my technique pretty much stank when I started (some say still does), adding some front camber really helped me get more miles out of tires. I kept with just this till I was good enough to start to experience brake fade first hand (took me a while to get to that point), then I started into making the car more capable.

When you do start out, no matter the group you go with, ask for coaches to ride with you at every chance. This is the fastest way to get better quickly. Also different coaches give slightly different perspective on how to get fast, and finding out what works best for you is part of the fun! There is no "right", there's just what's right for you.... Anyway, some coaches and you will click, some not so much so. But that's OK.

Another thing that you'll notice when you do get out to a track or AutoX, is there is always at least one, sometimes many more than one, who think that money is a replacement for brains. They show up with all sorts of high tech gear and uber hot this and that, and can't even really drive around the paddock without screwing something up or demonstrating the depth of their ignorance. Who wants to be that guy?

Another thing that you'll see is that there are some really, really good drivers with cars that one can only describe as "beaters" or other types of bad cars for track work, and cause they really know what they're doing, you find yourself pointing them by time after time. Everyone wants to be that guy!

There is someone who has been a long time member of the Nor-Cal Shelby Club, but has since moved out of the area. For some club events, he flys into town, rents pretty much anything, and beats the snot out of it on the track, independant of what the Hertz contract limits state. There was one time when he was taking some Volvo wagon around Thunderhill raceway at an impressive clip. Yes his turn speed were limited both by mass and crappy tires, but he knocked off good lap after good lap.

Anyway, good luck with how you choose to work on your car. Whether it's bone stock or uber modified, work with a local shop on track prep to set up your suspension, read your tread wear, and take advantage of all the coaching that you can get.

Want to mod your car? Tighten the nut behind the wheel! (My favorite car mod advice for sure....) Me, I haven't been at this stuff for all that long, and while I get OK marks for basic technique, I'm still very, very slow. That's OK. I have fun when I'm out. And I'm safe both on the track and safer now when I'm on the street thanks to what I've learned. I'm OK with that.

Matt

 

+1 for the Boston-area BMWCCAs. I drove my MINI up there for a track weekend at New Hampshire Motor Speedway and had a blast. Great instructors and a well-organized event. Show up before the gates open and you'll get a garage spot - first come, first served, as I recall. They also go to bigger tracks like Tremblant in Montreal, Lime Rock, and Watkins Glen.

If you run NHMS in the summer, make sure you have some good track pads, like Carbotech XP12/XP8 (front/rear). That track's tough on brakes. Keep an eye on your tire pressures, listen to your instructor, and I promise you'll have a good time.