TSW didn't make a front control arm bush... so there was no competition on those parts. Alta undersold thier sales channels and dumps parts on eBay at low prices. There's just no way to make any money against that. FES never formally discounts and we sell on eBay, but at the same price as MSRP. While we don't generate the "sale" buzz, our resellers don't have to worry that they will be competing against our discount pricing. I've talked to more than one retailer that is giving up on Alta for just that reason. Way can say why he dropped the line, if he chooses to, but the math is undeniable. Matt
Thanks for filling me in Doc. I guess my old brain figured it was more simplistic than it really was. :crazy:
Yes for many reasons we don't advertise alta products on our site. In reality for over a year now we've sold very few if any alta parts. One of the big reasons is when they sell the parts cheaper than what I buy them for that puts all their dealers out of the business and would loose money selling at an equal price. That's just dollars and cents. There are also issues I have with designs and product flaws that have made me source alternatives that actually performed better. And yes I'm not going to hide it, but I do have a bad taste in my mouth from being mistreated at certain MINI events.
I don't blame you Way. I completely understand. I feel like Alta is the MINI leader in parts (or at least that's what they try to accomplish) but they don't follow through. I've heard a lot of mixed feelings towards them and that has always lead to me NOT buying anything they make. When you hear a lot about a company who is "leading the way" with parts, but yet they don't seem to be of great quality, would you want to buy something that costs more than any other company sells the parts for when you hear the parts they make have all sorts of issues? Of course not! It just doesn't make sense to me. I see the prices and go "WOAH!" and then I hear stories about the stuff breaking or not fitting properly or them giving people more problems than solutions. I just don't trust them. They can say anything they want but as long as the stories continue, I'll never end up getting anything they make. I don't buy for the brand name. And one more thing..... Way, from all the posts I've seen, and from talking to you on the phone, you are probably one of the few shop owners (if not the only one) that won't tell someone that they should get this or get that just to make a sale. You keep it real and you don't bullsh*t anyone. And that is a very good trait and that's why I'll definitely be talking to you about my suspension choices and buying it through you. I really appreciate your honesty and you're work ethic. I wish there were more guys like you around! I remember a long time ago when I first got my MINI that I ordered a bunch of stuff and you called me and asked me what I planned to do with my MINI, and then you told me I shouldn't bother getting this and that because it's not a realistic part I'd need. You probably talked to me for a good 20 mins on the phone about my MINI and what I should really be looking at for upgrades. I can't say I've ever heard of anyone else doing that. I really wish I didn't live 12 hours away so I could come in to your shop and talk to you about setups. You have a lot of knowledge and it's such a privilege to have you part of the MINI forums and helping out guys who need it! So I just want to throw a huge THANK YOU out to you!!! :cornut:
The guys at TSW were the same way, which makes sense that Way picked up their product line. Great combo WMW and TSW.
I feel compelled to say that the Alta PSRS dont last forever. I loved mine when first installed, and for a few months there after. After 20k or so they, the plastic (maybe delrin), started to deteriorate somehow. They just seemed to rattle and make all sorts of god awful racket regardless of the terrain. Perfectly smooth roads they were fine, but just one small imperfection and it sounded like my CA was going to come off.. The kicker; the CAs and PSRS felt solid on the rack, but i guess that 1-1.5mm of movement was enough to cause the sounds. FYI WAY has a newer "super stiff" version of the powerflex bushings. IMO That would be the route to go if you were interested in the PSRS.
My local mechanic is the same way. It's so much easier to work with and give your money to someone you trust.
Your set screws worked loose... that's the source of the sound. The shaft of the control arm was rattling inside the steel sleeve. That's why owners weld the sleeve onto the shaft. But the delrin ball is going to move easier than the stiff poly bushings. That's the appeal of the hybrid solid bush approach of the PSRS. Matt
That is the biggest plus the PSRS has......doesn't restrict movement, just eliminates the play. All poly inserts will restrict the movement of the control arm, and the stiffer you go the harder it is to move the arm up/down. I have got at least 8 fellow club members who have done the PSRS and none of them have regretted the decision.
I think this has been gone over a few times, but PowerFlex bushings are a two piece design, which allows proper/better movement as stock. Ill agree the PSRS allowed completely unrestricted movement. But so does the MiniMadness CA/bushings... On my PSRS, and not to be argumenative, i do not think the sleeves were the issue. I tried new set-screws (after chasing all threads) to try and cure the problem, and it stayed the exact same. Also, even with all screws out, those sleeves were a complete PITA to remove. I was unwilling to weld the sleeves into place as a solution, when it may or maynot have helped. I would have them been forced to buy new control arms to switch over. I was very disappointed having to remove the PSRS, as when first installed it was awesome.
The powerflex bushing does not allow the same amount of movement as oem does. I have seen the difference myself. Only the PSRS allows unrestricted movement. As to the sleeves being welded....they only need to be tacked in place. Very easy to grind off the weld and slide it off.
How exactly does the powerflex limit movement ? The only way i could see it is if they ran dry of anti-seize and the poly bound on itself. Thats a simple fix though. When installing my PF bushings the CAs would flop freely when lifting the subframe back into place. Even pushing a CA up to bolt the ball joint on, if i let it go, would fall to full droop. The MiniMadness CA arm/bushing, also allows for unrestricted movement. As i said, i sincerely dont believe was the sleeve that was rattling. Even after fresh set screws, the problem was still there and improved zero. I had a nice brick road to test it before/after on.
It limits movement by using a stiffer material. The arm has to be able to move laterally to the housing. The PW bushing simply replaces the soft OEM material with a harder substance. All the lube does is make installation easier and to help stop the noise of the arm moving in and out of the bushing. And I do have to admit that MM actually had a great product with their control arm replacement, to bad it is no longer available. Not sure why you had rattling problems, but it is in no way indicative of a widespread problem with the product. The OP won't go wrong with either product, I just hope he doesn't reject the PSRS out of hand.
The issue of motion limitation is totally overplayed do the math on the torque required to move any of the offerings (including the semi-solid Bavarian Auto units) and it's a very, very small percentage of the force required to move the suspension through it's entire range of motion. While it's real, it's not significant to all but maybe real race cars. And I'm not even sure if it's a real problem for them either. Matt
I was just on the Mini-Madness website and they still have it for $100........ Mini-Madness Control Arm Bushings
This more what i was talking about: New MINI Cooper S Madness "SS" front lower control arms While it still showing on their site, that doesnt mean it is still available, like Scottin was saying. Though i dont think i would call it a great product for the street, as the stock CA is a design crumble zone. Copper ante-seize is not exactly a material that just goes away, which is the lube used with all PF bushings. If the bushings start making noise, then it is time to lube then again, showing that the CAS does more then just ease with installation.
Way I see it... is this... Let's look at the solid BA style first. Since there is no sliding parts there, they get worked more. I have no clue how long they last, but the weight test that you did showed that what, it took 100 lbs or something to get them to thier maximum exreme? That's about 1/2" of travel on the stock springs or so, using round numbers. With race springs it's equivalent to even less deflection. So they just add extra stiffness. Good or bad, I'm not too sure, but it's not the end of the world. Does mean that if one wants to be meticulous on the spring rate, you have to take it into account. For the ones with the inserts that slide, it takes much less force to get the center to rotate. so there's less to take into account. If you look at a preferred bushing of racecars, solid Heim joints, those suckers groan and moan like a cheap whore! The noise is from stiction, and the surface friction to break them loose can be non-trivial. But the lever arm is small, and the amount of torque required to brake them free and get motion is considered a very small price to pay to keep the geometry fixed. Pure race car? Maybe it matters a bit. Maybe it doesn't. If you could feel a difference, was it something other than just the added rotational stiffness? Street car, it's a debate with no end, and no real consiquence. But then, a lot of the internet banter is about what is the best part that will never, ever be used anywhere close to it's capacity. Now an actuall limit on travel I haven't seen.... Matt Just occured to me... Take it to an extreme, and you've reinvented the torsion bar suspension! Some very fast cars have used torsion bars.... But to be fair, I don't know of a single combined torsion/conventional spring combo. Seems it's always one or the other.