Suspension Brakes Installing springs

Discussion in 'Tuning and Performance' started by leicaguy, Aug 23, 2010.

  1. leicaguy

    leicaguy New Member

    Aug 22, 2010
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    For sure. I'm planning on

    Front: neg 2.0 camber, 0 toe
    Rear: neg 1.25 camber, 0 toe

    Comments, suggestions?
     
  2. Dr Obnxs

    Dr Obnxs New Member

    Jun 11, 2009
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    I run very close to that...

    I'm at -2, 0 front
    -1, 0 rear

    It works well for me.....

    Matt
     
  3. leicaguy

    leicaguy New Member

    Aug 22, 2010
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    and 0 toe all around?
     
  4. minimark

    minimark Well-Known Member

    Jun 24, 2009
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    Some run just a tick of toe in on the rear, 1/8" to 1/16" overall toe in. Helps the car to track straighter (not wonder) on the highway but 0 is a good option too.
     
  5. Dr Obnxs

    Dr Obnxs New Member

    Jun 11, 2009
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    Yep

    0 toe all around.

    I'm also on Goodyear GS3Ds, and they tend to not wander on the freeway. So I'm happy.

    but due to scheduling, I'm driving the wifes clubman a lot (close to bone stock) and she's using mine to commute.... When I do drive my own Mini I'm shocked at the steering and feel. A lot more eager to turn for sure...

    Matt
     
  6. btwdriver

    btwdriver New Member

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    +1

    I prefer just a tad of toe in on the rear.
     
  7. Dr Obnxs

    Dr Obnxs New Member

    Jun 11, 2009
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    Comment on alignment specs....

    there is no one size fits all. The way I came to my settings wasn't because I'm a suspension and alignment expert. Far from it in fact. But I worked with the shop I use for alignement, and over a couple of years, we dialed in what worked well for me, my use, my driving style and where I drive. The main tech I worked with at Custom Alignment in Mountain View, CA and I would chat for about 15 min before each alignment while he had the car up on the lift looking over to see if anything worked loose (never did) and while he was reading my tread wear (always telling me I don't check my tire pressures enough!) Based on what I liked in the handling and what I didn't like in the handling, we came to these settings based on all the stuff that is on the car and the like.

    While I've done more than my share of car modding, one thing I've learned is that alignement set-up and suspension tuning is as much art as science, so I choose to work with a trusted source, I stay with them, I pay thier premium, and I get good results. I suggest that anyone who wants the best out of thier suspesion do the same. Start with some books so that you understand how suspensions work, how all the trade-offs in design interact etc. and then work with an expert so you can gain the benefit of all of thier benefit in getting your system to work.

    Most race drivers don't set up thier chassis, nor do they do thier own engines. This is because they are best at driving, and know how to converse with the experts who are best at engine building and chassis set-up. Anyway, I'm far from being an expert in any of these areas, but I can bolt stuff up pretty well, and I understand the concepts behind engine operation as well as how suspensions work. But I know my limits so that's why I go to experts for my suspension and alignment optimization.

    This means that anything you get from forums or talking to other people with the same car, heck even the same parts on the same car, should only be thought of as a starting point. Somehow, you have to find what works best for you. You may end up at a very different set of numbers than you started with. But that's good, not bad.

    Matt
     
  8. cal330ci

    cal330ci New Member

    Aug 30, 2010
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    In the rear you get VERY minimal camber adjustable... really not enough on lowered cars. Plus the aftermarket adjustable arms you can get are fairly strong too. Same in the front with the Struts... very small amount of camber adjustment. Camber plates are a good idea
     
  9. leicaguy

    leicaguy New Member

    Aug 22, 2010
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    Yep, camber plates and rear adjustable control arms are part of this discussion and have been ordered. The responders regarding alignment settings were taking that into consideration.
     
  10. leicaguy

    leicaguy New Member

    Aug 22, 2010
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    Wise words and understood. Thanks
     
  11. leicaguy

    leicaguy New Member

    Aug 22, 2010
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    book suggestions?
     
  12. Dr Obnxs

    Dr Obnxs New Member

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    There are lots...

    one that is every car guys library is "How to Make Your Car Handle" by Fred Puhn..... But there are tons that cover the subject well.

    Matt
     
  13. minimark

    minimark Well-Known Member

    Jun 24, 2009
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    Carroll Smith's "Tune to Win: The art & science of race car development & tuning" is also a good read.
     
  14. leicaguy

    leicaguy New Member

    Aug 22, 2010
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    Update (and more advice needed): Today I will be receiving TSW springs, Vorshlag camber plates and TSW adjustable control arms (2). Since I last posted I have also ordered an Alta 22mm rear sway bar. My thinking was that while I had the rear apart I'd go ahead and do it up right.

    However, I've been warned by a friend that with the added front camber, springs and now a 22mm sway bar I may introduce unwanted oversteer. That, I do not want. Any comments? Should I install the springs and camber plate first. Drive it on the track and see how it goes before deciding whether to install the bar? I know it will be repeat labor to install the bar later but I'm will to do it that way if it makes more sense. Or should I just do the whole shebang at once. BTW: it now has a 18mm stock sport sway bar.
     
  15. minimark

    minimark Well-Known Member

    Jun 24, 2009
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    You should be fine. There is enough adjustment in what your installing to start out easy. A -2° camber adjustment on the front is not that aggressive and just start out with the rear sway bar in its softest setting. Take it a little easy at first and get used to how the car is responding and then go more aggressive finding your comfort zone along the way... 2 cents
     
  16. BlimeyCabrio

    BlimeyCabrio Oscar Goldman of MINIs
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    May 4, 2009
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    You can also fine tune the oversteer with some rear camber adjustment - back there, reducing camber a bit will help the rear end come around (add oversteer), adding a bit more camber will tend to make the rear stick more at the limit. Or at least that's the way it works on my car.

    What works for my car also seems to depend A LOT on tires and pressures. The setup that was PERFECT on my Nitto Neo Gens was complete crap when I went to RE-11's. They added so much more stick to the rear that it would no longer rotate like it used to with the Nittos. I had to crank my 19mm bar up to full stiff, and it still doesn't rotate as much as I'd like... I need to take out a bit of camber (I'm at about -1.3deg on the rear - I need to take it down to about -1.0 I think).
     
  17. k-huevo

    k-huevo Club Coordinator

    May 6, 2009
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    Wait to install the rear anti-sway bar. Springs are the first step, experiment with camber and tire pressure.

    I doubt you would see over-steer with the rear bar included unless you were to lift throttle abruptly in a sharp corner carrying too much speed. However, bars are used to tune the suspension last with non-adjustable shocks. You can throw it all on together, but you're denying yourself a learning experience.
     
  18. leicaguy

    leicaguy New Member

    Aug 22, 2010
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    OK, thanks guys. I'm going ahead with the bar and start at the softest setting and - 1.5 camber rear. My track tires are S-Drives. In my experience they are pretty sticky street tires. So hopefully all will work.
     
  19. leicaguy

    leicaguy New Member

    Aug 22, 2010
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    OK, everything is installed. TSW springs, Vorslagh camber plates, Alta 22mm rear sway bar. Tomorrow I have it aligned and the shop will install TSW adjustable lower control arms beforehand. I will have them set front to - 2.0, rear to -1.3 (or -1.5, haven't decide yet) and 0 toe all around.

    So I've had it out on the local twisties (with unknown alignment settings) for some try outs. All I can say is WOW. What a freekin' difference. On some familiar turns where it used to plow forward with too much speed it now whips around the turn as if on rails. I like it!

    My only disappointment? This whole thing started with the idea of new springs to lower the profile. In the end it didn't get lowered much at all. Maybe 1/4 inch if that. The TSW springs are definitely shorter by at least an inch or more but it never translated to a lower car. :confused5: maybe the TSW's are that much stiffer that they don't compress as much with the car weight? I don't know.

    But I'll take performance over aesthetics any day.
     
  20. Dr Obnxs

    Dr Obnxs New Member

    Jun 11, 2009
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    you probably...

    won't notice any difference between -1.3 and -1.5 in the rear. And yes, getting the suspension up a notch from factory to performance is very transformative.....

    Enjoy!

    Matt
     

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