Engine 1st Gen Most liked posts in thread: Next step in my Modding

  1. BlwnAway

    BlwnAway Well-Known Member

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    #17 BlwnAway, Oct 16, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2018
    Personally I agree that linking to a banned vendors website or product page could give cause to review, edit and/or remove a post.
    But there shouldn't be any problem with having a discussion or even asking a question about any vendors product (active, non-active, never-active or banned) as long as the discussion or question isn't addressed by a banned vendor.

    Besides, MA is supposed to be "The Friendly Mini Site" not the "Friendly Unless Some of our Other Users disagree With You, Mini Site".
     
  2. Whine not Walnuts

    Whine not Walnuts Active Member

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    Any forum is a microcosm. There will be those "for" a particular item/part/procedure and those "against." Being involved with NAM in an Admin/Mod position, I was privy to information that many people have no knowledge of. Internet Brands (IB), which owns NAM, also owns 130 other auto/boat/atv/motorcycle forums. Their perspective on a forum community relative to participation, topics and the dynamics of a forum are very interesting. Through years of forum ownership and analyzing forum participation, they acknowledged that there was a 1% rule. This rule is that of all those that visit a forum, only 1% become involved enough to create posts. Nine percent of those that visit will join and participate in "consuming" the posts made by the 1%. The other 90% visit but leave.

    As noted previously, Mini Torque has allot of information on the Thumper heads. There is data posted that reflects horsepower/torque gains that one would associate with porting/polishing and larger valves. IMO there is enough of this information for an individual to make up their mind on what path to take with a head change. This data also reflects how the variables of intakes, cams, exhausts, tunes and temperatures all impact actual data recording. There is even variables relative to the type of device used for the collection of data.

    In a competitive atmosphere it would be logical to assume that an engine component with very strict tolerances would be able to function
    better than something "crafted" by human hands. Such is the case with a RMW head versus a Thumper head, but unless the person is looking for bragging rights, is the tolerance factor enough to justify the additional cost between the two?

    The answer is of course that some will agree and some will disagree . . . . . .
     
  3. Sully

    Sully Administrator
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    Ok - before we go further down this discussion, there have been many like this in the past.

    Here is what I think is a summary:
    1) I think most people agree a CNC head will most likely be better than a machine shop and/or hand done head. Your mileage varies. I imagine there are exceptions to this but overall appears logical.
    2) There is a cost difference and potential quality between the two scenarios. In this case, that weighs into this and it appears he feels the head will meet his goals.
    3) @BlwnAway is still happy with his decision and has a very nice build going. For those who have not seen it, here it is: https://www.motoringalliance.com/threads/hit-a-milestone-and-still-making-changes.14654/

    Like in that thread, there was a similar discussion. If @Whine not Walnuts chooses to go with Thumper or someone else so be it. Glad he made a decision and opinions were expressed. Personally, I look forward to seeing the outcome. It would be cool to see whomever he chooses make the head, but I'm not sure if that builder would have interest in that. Some builders want to keep their "special sauce" to themselves (this is anyone, not just Thumper etc) some don't. I understand both sides. I'll see if I can dig it up, but there was a video of one of the builders for the 88M5 head I mentioned earlier that showed the head build. Was pretty cool with the jigs etc.

    @Whine not Walnuts - you have any goals or outcomes in mind? i.e. HP/Torque etc? Timeline?
     
  4. Whine not Walnuts

    Whine not Walnuts Active Member

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    #51 Whine not Walnuts, Oct 22, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2018
    I take very good care of my MINI but it is 10 years old and has over 60,000 miles on the mass produced engine that it came with . An engine that by no means is balanced or blueprinted. The car goes as fast as I want to go on the twisties that I frequent. Do I need more horsepower and torque, no, but I want it.

    Now just because I want it and even though I have more than enough money to put the most expensive stuff made on it, I will not. I just cannot justify paying for that finely machined CNC head when a "crafted by hand" unit will do just fine for allot less money. Yes the machining has made each port just about the same, sorry nothing is exact as there are tolerances involved, but my pistons, rings, crankshaft and bearings are by no means worthy or requiring the CNC tolerances.

    Not looking for bragging rights, just looking to have a grin on my face.

    I ordered the ported intake today from Thumper and he is going to send me some pictures of the process that I will post here.
     
  5. MCS02

    MCS02 Moderator
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    My thoughts behind using the JCW head was if you were looking for the best bang for the buck that may be one avenue. I don't know if the ports match your headers though. I If not and it has to be ported also there won't be much savings going that rout.

    This thread is making me want to keep my R53.
     
  6. ScottinBend

    ScottinBend Space Cowboy
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    None..........probably won't get a head as I am happy with my car as it sits.
     
  7. BlwnAway

    BlwnAway Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, haven't been able to post for a while...
    The above is almost exactly what I experienced with the addition of the Cam Gear on a stock cam with an RMW BVH and the Sprintex. I got a total torque increase of about 8 ft/lb, but most importantly it started about 700-1000 rpm lower in the range, and made the butt dyno and overall driving experience much more enjoyable.
    I was so happy with the results I got another one when I bought this Cam from Thmpr as well, I just can't see using a BVH without one to supplement its natural power curve.

    As far as comparing heads, I can only give you a short term opinion since I only used this Head with my Sprintex for 7k miles.
    Honestly from what I could feel, they're both very evenly matched, and the car felt almost exactly the same. The only place I think i may give the nod to the TPR2rt is in the very upper end of the RPM with boost in excess of 18 psi.

    But... I really believe the reason for this is the match porting, and if you're not going to be pushing boost over 18-19 psi, the match porting just isn't needed, and the performance of both Heads are near identical as far as seat of the pants is concerned.

    The only other issue will of course be longevity, I've only got 12k on this Head and was able to get 125k "hard" miles out of the RMW. So now only time will tell
     
  8. MCS02

    MCS02 Moderator
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    I would go with RMW. I will leave it at that.
     
  9. Goldsmithy

    Goldsmithy MINI Alliance Ambassador
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    Match porting, if done right, can be a big boost to performance. Also, done wrong it can be a mysterious ailment. It takes a whole lot of research, using flow meters and the like, to determine if it is done right. I have never match ported a MINI head, but I'm done a slew of air-cooled VW heads. With the VW heads, it's not only the use of the die grinders but also the 'finish' on the walls that determines the 'flow' of the head. I am sure that if you just match port a head w/o doing the research behind it, you will not end up with the best results and possibly, poor results. The only person I know that can substantiate the research on 'porting' is Jan of RMW. Just my $.02...
     
  10. ScottinBend

    ScottinBend Space Cowboy
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    I think the biggest issue with the Thumper products has been in the past very spotty quality. Seen some images of some very scary porting jobs and the comments from folks with a lot more experience than me have not been encouraging. Seems to me that old school hand porting is really not the best way to go.
     
  11. MCS02

    MCS02 Moderator
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    On my X 1/9 I did the port and polishing. I had a machine shop with lots of experience building drag engines put in the big valves. They looked in their catalog and found valves with the right length stim hight and the size I wanted. Of course they had to put in bigger seats but they did a great job. Some 15 years later I was in a shop talking to the owner and he said he had an X 1/9 with BVH. He had never seen one like it, I walked out into the shop and there sat my old car. still running.
    So anyway......The JCW head was ported and polished, if I remember right I am old, have you looked at any local machine shops that could put in the size valves you want? Find one with experience with race engines.
     
  12. Whine not Walnuts

    Whine not Walnuts Active Member

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    #39 Whine not Walnuts, Oct 20, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2018
    OK a couple of things.

    1.) The JCW head does have enlarged exhaust ports but the intake ports are not. I am looking for my flow data but thinking the normal S head is like 100 CFM, the JCW head is 118 and the RMW BVH is like 180 CFM. CFM = Cubic Feet of air per Minute.

    2.) I will not be doing the head until after the first of the year. I will ask Thumper if he will provide some pictures during the process.

    3.) From dyno data I have found on the web the head along with my other mods will be in the 230 to 240 WHP range and a 200 range in Torque. As it appears the drivetrain loss factor for a FWD car is around 12% that would be around 265 BHP. Not bad for a 10 year flying pig.
     
  13. Dave.0

    Dave.0 Helix & RMW Powered
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    Oh and I almost forgot. Your 450’s should be ok on duty cycle but if you think you are close to maxing them out you can upgrade to 550’s and get them scaled and you should be good. That way you can take any fueling issues off the table.

    For the power range you are planning to run the OEM fuel pump should be good unless it is still the original one with high mileage like mine was.

    I replaced mine and the fuel filter for piece of mind with the one Colin sells. Link below graph




    27881840-4D13-421E-B646-358907342373.png

    https://www.greeneperformance.com/collections/mini-oem-performance-parts/products/fuel-pump
     
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  14. Goldsmithy

    Goldsmithy MINI Alliance Ambassador
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    I agree with your assessment of hand vs. machine. No matter the time or procedure involved, a hand done head will have variances with another hand done head., one compared to another. A machined head will not have those variances. Doesn't mean one is better than the other, it is just the nature of the beast. Please, let us know your experience as it will be valuable information.
     
  15. Sully

    Sully Administrator
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    Made a few adjustments to
    Agreed - I made some edits and removed those.
     
  16. MCS02

    MCS02 Moderator
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    Spot on! I couldn't agree more. I remember in the long ago days when I turned a wrench for a living a lot of people thought they could match the head to the header with a die grinder. After that they would polish the intake ports till they were shiny as a mirror. But in the world of carburetors you needed the intake ports to be a little rough to make turbulence to help atomize the fuel. I had a machine make a big valve head for for my X 1/9 we used 40mm valves. it really helped the engine breath.
     
  17. MCS02

    MCS02 Moderator
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    #19 MCS02, Oct 16, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2018
    You know there has been some good discussion about BVH here between all the pot shots and BS. As a matter of fact I think I may learn something. Now I don’t really give a flip who started what, that is being handled els where.
    We all have strong opinions. How about let’s stay on subject talk about the pros and cons and why we each made the choice we did. If you know history about a product share it. Please let’s try and start over and be polite
    I do have some questions but I will wait and ask them tomorrow, and yes I have my favorite tuner too.
     
  18. Sully

    Sully Administrator
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    Agreed - I will create a discussion in the site feedback area to discuss rules (written or implied). I will think through them and pose some thoughts for us to discuss and come to agreement on.

    Until then, let's move forward with discussing what we want to discuss.. cars, tuning, etc.
     
  19. MCS02

    MCS02 Moderator
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    If anyone misunderstood my last post I will say it simpler......Cant we all just get along?

    Now let's please have fun talking about our minis.
     
  20. Whine not Walnuts

    Whine not Walnuts Active Member

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    This thread is actually a discussion on "wants" and "needs." If I wanted to go really fast then I would have kept my LS3 Corvette, a nice yellow one that I bought from Dale Earnhardt Chevy, not Junior, who did own a MINI at one time. I can do allot of different stuff including turning a wrench on my car but I am more comfortable cutting wood than metal. This means chopping the frame up so I could put in a different larger engine is not going to happen.

    So back to thinking about squeezing a little more power out of the Tritec. Of course squeezing should really be "forcing more air through the motor." I have done the simple bolt on's such as pulley, cam, header and tune but to get much more, the forcing more air issue comes into play. The wants and needs also plays into the equation. Now I have the money to go with the biggest and best but this "need" thing keeps popping up. I am also frugal so after I assess my needs, I research and the number of Ben Franklin's involved are looked at very closely. This same logic, some might call penny pinching, led me to my just over $300 meth injection system and my just over $500 Brembo brake package.

    So, I am back to the Thumper head. What is interesting is that his TPR1 head that is only ported/polished can provide approximately 25 WHP +/-. Comparing the costs of different heads there is an approximate $50 per one horsepower of gain ratio. This is the head only and does not include labor, the other parts involved or a tune. The RMW head has greater hp results and is actually a little below that $50/HP number but for me it is back to what my needs are, not my wants.

    A MINI, any MINI is a great handling small car. For me being an old fart with hips that have seen better days, it is easy to get in/out of and with my 6-3 frame it has plenty of room. My flying pig is much more fun for my driving habits than the Corvette was, and, by spending some of kids inheritance on a Thumper head, my smile might be just a little bigger.

    That is of course if I remember tomorrow what I said today . . . . . . . .