-2 deg seems a lot at first. The stock config is right at -0.5 deg front and -1.5 deg rear. Right now I'm running close to 0.7 deg neg camber in front because k-huevo did his little trick of pulling the white pin out of the shock tower and pushed the camber to max. I have a lot of wear from center to outside because of the autox and track time. Andyroo is right about -2 likely not being enough for autox. In fact, a lot of autox and track time is done with -2.5 to -3.0 by a lot of folks in R56's. I'm sticking with the -2 for now primarily because I want a little less severe daily ride that the IE fixed plates offer. The vorshlag plates are metal to metal and pretty harsh. The AST's and stiffer springs will already bring in a lot of vibration as it is and I'm likely not going to mess with the variable camber much until I get closer to the Targa 2013 anyway. I'll get more aggressive with such things in training time in 2012 and might go to more camber then with the variable plates. At -2.0 the tire wear will likely be more even given the 20+ autox events and 8+ track days planned for the next 12 months. Redbeard, Be sure to post your review of the RS-3's. I'm planning on going that route primarily because they like the heat which is important here in Texas. The star specs are grippier out of the shoot when cool but long hot days at the track changes their feel quite a bit.
I will let you know how the R-S3s are long term. :cornut: Overall review of the Starspecs: Great tires. Phenominal at the autox until I took them to the track. Two good track days heat cycled them pretty damned hard and they were hard to get hot enough to be useful at an autox after that. Forces a two driver set-up with one driver being the tire warmer. They are still sticky at track temps but they aren't any good for the street or really for the autox anymore. They do handle the heat and wear VERY well. The ones I have now have 6 track days, 1/2 season of autox, and about 10k DD miles. I'm sure they have at least 2 more track days in them. I will point out that I am anal about rotating them for even wear and after I saw what was happening with the camber and the outside wear I had them flipped on the rims to even that wear out. From the other Autox'ers I know that are hardcore the tire of choice in a ST-class is either the Kuhmo XS or the R-S3 and most folks will tend towards the R-S3s. Starspecs aren't even a competitor now. Also, the Redline Time Attack guys/gals running in a street tire class are running R-S3s. Speaks well of the tire.
That's a good summary of my experience as well. I also see a growing interest in the RS-3's locally. Andy Hollis is a member of the Austin SPOKES Club and he's the one who does the Tire Reviews in Grassroots Motorsports. He really likes the R-S3's and has inspired quite a few of the top drivers in SPOKES and SASCA to try them so they're taking over the star specs as the weapon of choice. I'm not going to get a set until I have the -2 deg camber so I'll get more even wear from the beginning...just a couple of months at most, I hope.
Well, it has been awhile since my last post. The big news is I installed AST 5100's, Swift Springs and Vorshlag's new R56 variable camber plates (in a cool red color!). The new plates are aluminum and much lighter than the old ones. Glad I waited for that. I bought the set up used through Werkin Mini who did the install while I cheered on the side. K-huevo is a meticulous man. I'll get an alignment tomorrow morning by the local alignment wizard used my many of the autox and track crowd here. He's not done a mini before so it will be fun. He was surprised anyone would put such a set up in a Mini. :wink: My first autox event is next Sunday, 22 May, and I'll post results right after. I've not actually had much time to drive the Lenz since the install but the initial drive was great. It's a different car. Can't wait to get it all set up and see what it can do. I'm planning on setting -2.0 deg front and keep the rear at stock -1.5 deg. I'll keep minimal but positive tow in front and rear for now and see how that works. Ride height is about 3/4" lower but I may put that back up a bit. I think I want to keep more travel available. More to come. And, I'm pumped. :ihih::ihih::ihih:
Cool. I'm looking forward to your impressions and to hearing about you trouncing some WRXes... Since your post telling me, I've been hearing/seeing more MINI guys running as much as 2.5-3 deg of negative camber in front with a neutral toe and leaving the rears stock with 1.5 deg negative and a hair of toe in. :eek6: I'm interested to learn more about your spring and shock/strut choice. Can you fill me in on the specs a bit?
AST 5100's are legit. Sweet setup. Also, agree with Redbeard, consider 0* front toe for better steering. Rear toe in should correlate with your swaybar - more toe-in will give high speed stability but also more understeer.
I am interested in the springs rates that you chose as well. I have the lesser version of your set-up, and am in love with the entire combo. AST/swift/vorshlag = pretty awesome stuff. I also have an event coming up this Sunday, which i am really looking forward to! I was hoping to have my springs in by this weekend, but does not look like it will happen, so i will have to settle with a fresh alignment. Currently i am at -2.0F -1.5R w/ zero toe all the way around, and love it. I will likely nudge the front camber a little closer to the -2.75 range (happy medium lol) as well. Grey, do you plan on going to the SWDiv hosted by Houston SCCA, in July ? I am hoping to make that one, and it would be awesome to see you there as well. There is a little STX R32 i am hoping will make it as well.
I have the 70N/mm (approx 400 lbs/in) Swift springs. It is probably the max for a daily driver and autox/track set up. It is fairly rough riding for some, I guess, but it fits in with my decision to remain relatively uncomfortable as I enter "old age"...(60!!!...incredible!!!). I can't help but think too much comfort will make one too soft. But, I think the nature of the Swift springs is such that the response to bumps is quicker and the nature of the road noise and movement is very different than with the OEM set up....I like it better with the new set up. Thanks for the info...I might go a little more aggressive on the alignment this morning...zero toe and -2.5 deg front camber. KC....I'm planning on attending the next two SW Divisionals. SASCA is hosting the June event in San Antonio and I'll be at the Houston event in July. Look forward to meeting you.
There are trade-offs when increasing camber beyond negative two degrees, wheel spin is one, although not as much of an issue on GreyLens' OS Giken LSD equipped car, and reduced traction affects braking too. It is individual performance that will dictate optimum camber; what works for one tire/suspension/environment/driving style, may not be the best for another. The square spring rates on GreyLens' kit were intended for a heavier MINI used primarily as a road track car. GreyLens is also used at the track, but for autoX, lower rate 60N/mm springs up front would be better suited as a starting point for that application. Also, because GreyLens is a daily driver, I would suggest compromising rear spring bias and recommend 60N/mm springs front & rear. AST 4100 & 5100 series shocks have excellent valving that can be experienced during low speed/driver inputs. Primarily, it's quality valving without much bleed-off that allows higher rate springs to be tolerable on the street, and rebound damping can be used to adjust turn-in & exit characteristics independent of spring rate.
I think k-huevo is on the money here. I'm going to run the 70n/mm springs for awhile but may move lighter at some point. I can see a scenario where I go to the 60's (Swift only for me) most of the time and then move back to 70's in the rear (or both Front and Rear) for the autox divisional's and national's in the summer. I got the alignment done yesterday by a local fellow who has a very strong reputation for quality service here among the autox and track crowd. I can see why he has the rep and will go to him exclusively. Here are the final specs I decided on. He set all parameters EXACTLY as requested. Front: -2.2 deg cam ... 0 deg toe Rear: -1.5 deg cam ... 0.15 deg toe in I'll probably keep this setup for the summer though I may go back in August for a final tweak of alignment if I decide to take the plunge and attend nationals. I figure I need to start getting the experience sooner than later. K-huevo has convinced me to keep good records on damper settings, tire pressure, driving experience, impressions etc and work from there. Then we'll assess next steps. I still haven't done any real testing but a little bit of street exercise was a blast. It's like a wholly different car! We'll see how long it takes me to learn how to drive it. Unfortunately, we have an illness in the family that may keep me from making the local autox event this Sunday. We're hosting the SW Divisional in June and I'm sure I'll be able to make that one, though.
The AST 5100's, Swift Springs and Variable Plates resulted in a significant improvement in handling! Through all the slalom, lane changes and basic turns it performed beautifully. Sweepers were a different story...more later. Turn-in was very aggressive and comfortable. I didn't make any rebound adjustments because we ran all six runs back to back at a pretty fast pace (Front: 4 clicks open from closed...Rear: 2 clicks open from closed.) Also, I'm not yet sophisticated enough to really tell what is going on at a very granular level but my awareness of the second by second dynamics of the behavior of the car is getting better with time...I think. The front camber appears to be set about right (-2.2 deg F and -1.5 deg R). The wear line on both front and back tires was right at the tread edge. I didn't do any temperature measurements to assess camber setting but I'll do that soon. That is likely more specific on the more extended wheel time during track sessions but I'll do the measurements on the autox field anyway...just need to buy a Pyrometer. I was running 34 psi front and rear on all runs. I definitely made up considerable time on these turns. I was dead even or slightly ahead of my main competitor for most runs. That's a big improvement. He is usually about a second faster than me on all runs. On the last run I dropped another 0.4 secs and would have had him but he dropped about .7 secs so he beat me by about 0.35 secs. Just Good Driving!!! The new config is definitely an improvement and I feel I'm technologically on par now with a disadvantage in weight but an advantage in power. Hopefully, I'll learn to use it better in the coming months. Along those lines, I'm still working on a core needed skill for autox. I'm developing a pretty good feel for running lane changes, slalom cones, basic turns and I think I'm getting smoother and more aggressive at "attacking the back" of the cones. The new suspension clearly helped me there as well. But, I still have poor discipline when it comes to sweepers. I invariably come in too hot and either push out too far or upset the car so much I bog down and can't roll out on the throttle like I should. During the final run of the day I stayed very focused on this problem and made a strong conscious effort to address all three of the 180 deg sweepers in a more measured way...brake a bit earlier, less severe, come into the turn slower and set up a turn radius, don't change that turn setting, then slightly roll on the throttle early in the sweeper, modulate the throttle to accelerate as much as possible and still maintain the turn radius (throttle steer). This all allows the car to be in a balanced position and let's you roll on the throttle more aggressively and earlier as you get closer to the exit so that your at max throttle at the earliest opportunity and still holding max traction. Again, quite a mouthful. But, this has been the hardest thing for me to learn do consistently (actually, occasionally would be fine!). But, this time, really for the first time, I guess, I consciously did it reasonably well on the two left hand sweepers and I know that is where I picked up some real time! I could feel it and the feeling was good! Unfortunately, I lost some time when I came in too hot, even hotter than normal, to the third sweeper. (Just got too excited, again, I guess!) But, the technique/method is seriously sinking in. Again, this is part of the meaning of the "slow is smooth, smooth is fast" thing which I find hard to implement. This time if felt good, though. I have a bug or two with the set up and not sure what's up. Sent a more complete summary to Keith so we should discuss that this weekend. I plan to do some testing this weekend. If I can figure out what is happening, or IF something is happening besides pilot error I'll post some thoughts about it. The 70n/mm springs are pretty stiff. I may order a set of 60's and experiment with various combo's sooner than later. I can see me ending up with the 60's front and rear for the sake of daily driver ride quality. But, having 70's in the rear and 60's in the front, which is likely to be a great combo for autox, may also do for daily driver concerns. I'll sort that out in the next few months. Bottom line, the car is definitely more capable than before. I still have a lot of learning to do to drive the new set up well. My time on each run was: My Times: 42.173 / 41.583 / 41.523 / 41.439 / 41.461 / 41.103 Chief Competitor: DNF / 41.551 / 42.048 / 41.473 / 41.082 / 40.75 I placed 35 out of 125 in raw scores and 29 out of 125 in PAX scores. George beat me with a last run at 40.750!! I know I lost it at a right hand sweeper I just couldn't get right. As you can see by the times I was feeling kinda cocky for a couple of runs but George out drove me in the end. Curses! So, I was improving on each run as I became more familiar with the set up. I can see continuing to improve for awhile since I'm not really using everything of the new set up yet. George is definitely now looking over his STX shoulder. :ihih::ihih::ihih: I placed 35 out of 125 in raw scores and 29 out of 125 in PAX scores.
Sweepers are essentially track turns - that's where you get the most crossover in terms of knowledge.
STX comments Awesome thread to get into. I started autoxing this year in a stock 2010 Mini with an auto trany and runflats. I have had so much fun. I did put on wheels with a big enough offset to bump me into Novice 2 and because that happened I figured why not go ahead and put in a 19mm rear sway bar which moved me into Novice 3. Since all of this we fell in love with a Cooper S with a dealer installed JCW engine and aerokit and now I'm in STX. The recent comment about the Vorshlag camber plates is a question I had too. Are they the best one to get? The car will still be a daily driver. The Hotchkis 19mm sway bar, new lighter wheels and maybe some Kumho, Yokos, BFG G sports?? tires are being considered. STX looks like a fun class but quite honestly autocrossing is about the most fun thing to do there is.
"The Best" is a matter of taste. Some folks are okay with a harsher DD than others. Try and grab a ride with someone with the same or similar mods and see how you like it. Otherwise dive in and if it's not for you be erady to swap back. Vorshlag adjustables are nice as you can set your camber quickly from the top of the tower and run then put it back. Just make sure you have your toe settings dialed in at an alignment shop. As you increase your negative camber you effectively increase toe-in. So you have to decide of you are okay with extra toe-in during autox or if you are okay with almost neutral toe while DD. I'm sure others can chime in here with some experience on both points.
-2.0 front camber (or as close as you can get with stock-diameter springs) 0.00 front toe Set and forget. Any more camber and you'd need smaller diameter springs on coilovers. But that's not enough camber to affect your tire wear. I've had those suspension settings for three years, 20+ track days, a couple autocrosses, two Dragon weekends, and about 60k miles, mostly highway. Rotate your tires every 3-5k or anytime the fronts get more worn than the rears.
I agree with Redbeard. I installed the newest version of the Vorshlag variable plates. (They come in red anodized aluminum?) They look cool and are an improvement over the original version. For a daily driver, though, they definitely increase the road noise. I have the AST 5100's and Swift Springs (70N/mm) which I'm increasingly comfortable with in my daily driver but the ride is definitely harsher and louder. But, it is a great set up. I'm still fine tuning it. I plan to change the ride height this weekend and get a new alignment. I'll post some recent results at the SCCA South West Divisional soon. I ran against Terry from Vorshlag in their new 2011 Mustang, red, STX config. He beat me. The new mustang is a viable autocrosser and they have their company car set up well and Terry can drive. More on this later. The fixed Ireland Engineering plates give a good neg camber setting (about -1.6 deg?) and run quieter, I'm told. I have a brand new set I bought but haven't used yet. I think I'll stick with the vorshlag. I may sell the IE's. They're probably better for someone who wants a less harsh DD but still wants a significant increase in camber.
I'm running -2.2 deg front camber and it seems just right. But, I'm not keen on the zero toe in front. I'll explain more in a coming post but I'm going back to a slight toe-in config soon. BThayer makes a good point about the spring diameter...I have smaller diameter springs than stock.