Engine Drivetrain 2nd Gen S Stock MCS turbo working hard vs. JCW turbo hardly working

Discussion in 'Tuning and Performance' started by Bster13, Feb 24, 2014.

  1. Bster13

    Bster13 New Member

    Dec 26, 2013
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    After reading some piston failure threads I'm trying to walk the line and make good/safe power. What would increase heat inside the engine more and what drive characteristics would there be?

    Stock MCS Turbo:
    - Tune it to run upwards of 20PSI. With the smaller turbo, it has to work harder and increases intake temperatures because it is perhaps out of its efficiency range, perhaps more back pressure, and thus heating the air up moremore heat in the cylinders....heat bad.

    JCW Turbo on MCS:
    - Tune it to run say 18-19PSI. With larger turbo, it has to work less to flow the same CFMs into the cylinders, thus less heat into the cylinders for the same amount of CFMs.
    -Potential downside would be later spool, though I'm not sure how much later.

    Am I thinking about this correctly? That at the cost of a little later spool, I could use the JCW turbo as a means to pump less heat into the engine and close the same HP/TQ figures and same area under the curve?
    *assuming all other bolt-ons are done, including intercooler. No meth for me at this time.*

    This was a good read:
    10 psi on a big turbo and small turbo-How come one makes more power?!? : KA24E / KA24DE Forum
     
  2. Jason Montague

    Jason Montague New Member
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    :cornut: Not being an engineering type, my thinking just goes to: Want cooler forced air then get a better inter cooler. Want more air then get a better turbocharger. Want both then get both and better injectors. So I'll 'bump' you and wait for some engineering types to come along.:Thumbsup:

    Jason
     
  3. Dave.0

    Dave.0 Helix & RMW Powered
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    Keep the OEM Turbo, get a Helix intercooler and add Howerton Meth kit. :Thumbsup:

    That will keep thing cool and clean which is a must for an R56.
     
  4. MCS02

    MCS02 Moderator
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    DaveO the resident Meth pusher! :lol::lol:
    Of course he's right.
     
  5. DneprDave

    DneprDave Well-Known Member
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    Engineering type here.
    Jason and Dave O. nailed it.

    Dave
     
  6. Jason Montague

    Jason Montague New Member
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    :cornut: Thanks Dnepr Dave:Thumbsup:. So sometimes engineering can be simple and obvious? Thanks for including Dave.O. 1. He is correct. 2. You saved us all a lot of verbal grief.:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

    Jason
     
  7. Bster13

    Bster13 New Member

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    I understand meth has it's benefits, but just considering turbo to turbo, is there a benefit to going with my first or second scenario?
     
  8. Dave.0

    Dave.0 Helix & RMW Powered
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    Bster13 I saw this same thread over on the RMW site and I would suggest you take Jan and Colin advice.
     
  9. Bster13

    Bster13 New Member

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    The RMW thread was about turning an MCS turbo into a JCW, which I now know is possible, unlike what I've heard previously. It seems there are a few other tuners/enthusiasts out there who are more into the R56 these days and I've seen one tuner actually post data on tuning a JCW on an MCS (you wouldn't believe how hard that's been to track down haha). So I decided to post my slightly different question about ability vs. reliability (what setup puts less stress on the motor for the same given HP/TQ) here to tap a larger knowledge base. Thx.
     
  10. Dave.0

    Dave.0 Helix & RMW Powered
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    ^^^ I respect that but you are getting excellent advice on RMW from the people who know and have tested this already. I am not just talking about Jan and Colin, lots of other guys on the RMW site are very knowledgeable also.

    Just so you know some other :tuners" are just speculating to get a customers money and do not know the true results because they have never done it or at least done it successfully with proven & documented results.
     
  11. Systemlord

    Systemlord New Member

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    These Howerton meth kits seem daunting to install and configure, it's way over my understanding! If someone knowledgeable could install this for the user that's a different story.
     
  12. cct1

    cct1 Well-Known Member
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    The truth is, there just isn't as much going on with the R56 in the tuning world. There are improvement that can be made, but not to the degree you can make safely with an
    R53. Just be VERY careful what you do and where you go; you've done the research, so you should be aware by now the early R56 disasters and blown engines with some of the overly aggressive tunes that tapped into the overboost. There is a reason why that boost isn't available all the time...

    The R56 engine is close to maxed out. There just isn't much room there to do more unless you're willing to start upgrading internals.

    Or you could just buy a unichip and be done with it (joke).
     
  13. Dave.0

    Dave.0 Helix & RMW Powered
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    What part of the country are you in? Helix in Philly will install it for you and I know Colin in Cali will do and has done many of them also.
     
  14. Systemlord

    Systemlord New Member

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    I'm in California, it's a dream and a curse if you know what I mean!
     
  15. Dave.0

    Dave.0 Helix & RMW Powered
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    RMW is in SoCal and so is Colin. I am sure he can help you out or do the Meth kit install for you.

    https://www.greeneperformance.com/mini.html
     
  16. Bster13

    Bster13 New Member

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    I would argue there is at least some rumblings in the R56 tuning world, haha.

    My opinions (based on crawling the various forums) on tuning the R56 has gone from:

    - "Leave the stock turbo on the MCS, there are ECU issues with tuning a JCW or Hybrid." (the ECU is expecting PSI to build, but larger turbo spool slower so it throws a code)

    To (which I've seen a thread from Evolve showing dyno charts, etc., plus another UK tuner I respect states it is possible):

    - "You can tune a JCW turbo on a stock MCS, because the spool up is not ~that~ much different, but don't go Hybrid."

    And now I'm beginning to hear claims of:

    - "You can tune a Hybrid on a stock MCS. But it's this big secret no one has documented."


    So I at least believe a JCW can be successfully tuned on an MCS. I've not seen any proof of a MCS or JCW being tuned properly with a hybrid at this time.

    The question on my mind is "what HP/TQ do I think is ~safe~ to give me 100k on my new motor and what's the ~safest~ way to get there?" (thus the question of the MCS turbo working harder or the JCW turbo working less)

    I don't have research on what the MCS engine will handle long term. If some folks on this thread who've been in the game longer can comment on how much TQ the R56 can handle, I'd be very appreciative. I'd think you can tune to a peak torque #.

    With my ~very~ limited knowledge, it just seems safer to run the JCW turbo at lower boost levels with a cooler intake charge vs. the MCS turbo at higher IATs to reach the same TQ/HP.

    Here is what I have found for dyno sheets (yeah not very scientific, but what can ya do?):

    [​IMG]

    The other thing on my mind is these catastrophic piston failures. Is it because tuners are pushing too far with tunes showing knock and problems from the start with a difficult ECU to handle, or is it the car is tuned properly, then add some good old carbon buildup on the intake valves over time and u have a recipe for knock & grenaded engine?

    I would be fine with my engine lasting X% less over time, that's to be expected when pushing the engine more than stock, but the catastrophic failures are what I want to avoid. If I build a home-walnut blaster and I just blast carbon away every year, keep up on my OCIs, run an oil cooler, run some meth/water for cooling & cleaning only....

    ....then if tuned "properly" (out of my element, I assume tuned for best results but no knock, proper AFRs, etc.), you would avoid these nasty disfigured pistons, no?



     
  17. Dave.0

    Dave.0 Helix & RMW Powered
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    You are missing the model year in the MINI's above which is very important. (they changed motors ya know)

    Messing with those turbo cars and a bad tune = Boom.
     
  18. Bster13

    Bster13 New Member

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    Yeah I agree the model years would certainly help. Unfortunately I didn't pay attention at the time, I'll have to double back and see if folks mentioned.

     
  19. cct1

    cct1 Well-Known Member
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    Have fun with the N18, if that's what you have, it's incredibly easy to tune and modify, moreso than an R53, it's not even close. No offense, but I've come to the realization that you're going to keep digging until you find what you want to hear. That's a dangerous game to play, but that's the road we're travelling apparently. You've been given good advice here and elsewhere. You can find the advice that tells you what you WANT to hear, here and elsewhere. But just because you WANT to hear something doesn't mean it's worthwhile; if you want to join the fairly large crowd of MINI owners with blown engines, knock yourself out.
     
  20. Dave.0

    Dave.0 Helix & RMW Powered
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    That is exactly what I have been trying to say all along, but someone wont listen.
     

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