Engine Drivetrain 2nd Gen S Stock MCS turbo working hard vs. JCW turbo hardly working

Discussion in 'Tuning and Performance' started by Bster13, Feb 24, 2014.

  1. cct1

    cct1 Well-Known Member
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    Yeah, I hear you.

    Thread should be titled, "You can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear."

    But you can make a silk purse worth about as much as sow's ear, if you try hard enough.
     
  2. Jason Montague

    Jason Montague New Member
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    :cornut: My thoughts gathered through the years and y'all jump in to correct me if I'm wrong. The Brazilian, Chrysler, Tritec, Pentagon short block was iron and very robust leading to much greater power producing modification but due to inherent strength would easily handle it, yes? The French, Peugeot, Prince aluminum block was less robust. It already produced more power than the Tritec but due to its lack of robustness could not keep both longevity and large increases in power. The potential for great increases in power could not be sustained by the by the weakness of its design, yes? So my N14 engine can be tweeked but to keep longevity, tweeked only. It's already close to being maxed out, Yes.:Thumbsup:

    Jason
     
  3. Bster13

    Bster13 New Member

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    Allow me to give the play by play here.... Unless I missed it, no one here has said "MCS/JCW will give you cooler intake manifold temperatures, and thus less wear on your car in theory."

    Jason said "get a better intercooler" to which I mentioned already having in my initial post.
    Jason said "want more air get a better turbo" to which I never asked about. I asked about the same amount of air/CFMs, thus same torque, but what was the safer/better way to get there.
    Jason also mentioned getting better injectors, which does not apply to the R56 for all levels of power that have been mentioned in this thread from what I've read.


    Dave.0 states his usual, but doesn't say why the OEM turbo is better for the scenario I proposed.

    DneprDave says he's an engineering type, but adds the equivalent of nodding his head.

    Jason pats himself on the back for answering questions that weren't asked.

    Dave.0 references a thread that while related, was not asking the same questions:

    RMW Thread I posted: "~Can~ a JCW turbo be tuned on an R56?"
    This thread I posted: "I'm confident what turbo can be tuned, now what's a safe level of torque, and what is the best way to get there when comparing one turbo to the other?"

    And while RMW folks are knowledgeable, I'd be a fool to put all my eggs in one basket and not collect other's opinions. I went through the whole process of sorting tuners in the EVO world and those that post verifiable results. I've done my homework in the MINI world and it's my opinion that the JCW can be tune successfully on an R56 N14 with the correct tuner. The verdict on the hybrid is still out as I haven't seen anyone prove it (though some promise they can, I don't believe it yet).

    I am personally past the question of whether it can be done (JCW on MCS for the N14) and if you don't have the same opinion based of what you've read, that's fine. If you'd like to contribute further to the thread please answer the questions posed in my first post. If you don't honestly know, that's fine too, I obviously don't either and that's why I'm asking.

    It's fine if u guys high-five each other on every forum, but I have specific questions and I'd like details if you have them. I appreciate the advice you've given on suspension/wheels/brakes and I've followed the majority of it, but I just don't get very much from you guys in these threads specific to the R56. My car is a 2007 R56 N14. I thought that was understood from all the excessive posting I've done with my short time on planet-MINI. My apologies.
     
  4. cct1

    cct1 Well-Known Member
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    Nothing more needs to be said on this, that sums it up completely.
     
  5. Jason Montague

    Jason Montague New Member
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    :cornut: Yes Sir but the mods I mentioned are tweeks that don't lead to huge power gains unless coupled with an overly aggressive tune which can and has burned up N14 engines in the blink of an eye. Want a guaranteed blow up, add nitrous oxide. This is such a subtle subject that it often seems to the new comer that we constantly seem to contradict ourselves. :Thumbsup:

    Jason
     
  6. cct1

    cct1 Well-Known Member
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    #26 cct1, Feb 27, 2014
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2014
    That sums it up quite nicely!!!


    Sometimes one basket is all you need...


    Good luck finding the correct tuner:Thumbsup:!!!Let us know the long-term results!

    Just go back to the very beginning of R56 tuning, look at where it was then, and where it's at now. If that doesn't make it any clearer, nothing will. It is not worth the time, effort, and potential headache of a disaster for any sane tuner to tune your car for miniscule gains at a potential devastating risk. I know you don't like that answer, and you're going to keep searching, but don't hit us with a "your not helping" because you're not listening. I will try to refrain from a big fat "I told you so" if you go the direction I suspect you will.

    That being said, if you would pay attention to what's going on, that may all change (it may not, but there's a chance it will). But it's going to need more time.
     
  7. Dave.0

    Dave.0 Helix & RMW Powered
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    Dave.0 states his usual, but doesn't say why the OEM turbo is better for the scenario I proposed.

    I don't care if you or other tuners blow up your car but I do believe the OEM BMW engineers know more than you and I and the rest of the member on any forum.

    You want an absolute answer send an e-mail to BMW / MINI and ask.

    At this point you should sell you car and buy what you want Vs trying to make a bastard child R56 that will blow up in the end and you will have a huge paper weight.

    I am done with this useless thread.

    MOTOR ON!
     
  8. MCS02

    MCS02 Moderator
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    This thread is spooling up faster then a turbo! And just like a turbo its getting hot. :lol:

    :postcount
     
  9. cct1

    cct1 Well-Known Member
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    Nah, it's twincharged, dow low it's more like a supercharger, with a big ol' reduction pulley, it's been making power and heat from the first post, no turbo lag whatsoever in this thread...:biggrin5:

    Like the R56 turbo though, I predict it will very shortly lose steam on the top end...
     
  10. Jason Montague

    Jason Montague New Member
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    :cornut:I'll try to answer the original question to suite you. I have MINI Margi(08 R56 N14 MCS/JCWm) and as stated a better inter cooler should lower manifold intake temps. On my N14 after adding not a better inter cooler but an inter cooler air diverter, the intake temps dropped to 5-7F above ambient at cruise if ambient temp 50-90F. Step on the gas and manifold temps rapidly go up 20F. Now that is indeed all that I know. If this doesn't help then I'm very sorry and suggest that you collect all of our names and ask Nathan to ban us from the site. We are not professions here but amateur friends helping each other as best that we can. COMPRENDE?:crazy::cornut:

    Jason
     
  11. Bster13

    Bster13 New Member

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    Ironic how everyone on this thread has modified their stock MINI designed by BMW / MINI engineers. But yeah, it was a theoretical question and of course if I had access to BMW / MINI engineers I would of been at their doorstep already but all I have are a bunch of opinionated (myself included) enthusiasts, so I do the best I can. :biggrin5:

    (@Jason I appreciate the info you just posted on your IC results, but it's not in the scope of what I was asking. I'll definitely have an IC when Helix gets around to announcing their group buy :beer)

    I asked:
    - What is the "safe" level of torque? ...figuring folks who have been around would know for the R56.
    - What's the safest way to get there comparing one turbo to another? (provided I'm personally confident they can be successfully tuned, which others hold differing opinions on.)

    I never asked for details on "how to get the most power out of an R56 with an overly aggressive tune." I'm not frustrated with anyone contradicting, my boss is just slightly frustrated with all the time I've spent here while I'm supposed to be working with nothing to show for it. :biggrin5: And if folks don't want to answer a theoretical question, we're at an impasse, and that's fine. I appreciate the help where I can get it and I'll try to be even more specific in my question(s) next time. . :mad2:

    I don't want anyone else to have to vent to atmosphere so I'll try on another forum. If present company find it there is of course no obligation to reply, but I hope everyone has been entertained, informed, or at least pulled away from work at least a bit here. :lol:
     
  12. DneprDave

    DneprDave Well-Known Member
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    You seem to be hung up with thinking that a JCW turbocharger will produce less heat than a stock S turbocharger. Though there may be a small difference in output temperature the turbos are so close in size that the temperature difference is negligible and can be discounted. The place in the intake circuit that cools off the charge air is the intercooler, get an oversized intercooler to reduce charge temperature. For even more charge air cooling, put a methanol/water injection system on your car, Howerton makes the best one for a MINI. For longevity, keep your maximum boost pressure below 20 psi The N14 doesn't like pressures over that and cracked ring lands will eventually result when you boost over 20 psi.

    The best tune option for an N14 engine is the Cobb Access Port, it is the only true OBD2 ECU tune, that can be tuned in real time on a dynamometer. All the others are piggyback tunes or they require the ECU be removed and sent in for a tune then re installed. As you have an N14 engine, an Access Port will work for you.

    Part of my job is being a certified ABB Turbocharger technician. The turbochargers I work on are about the size of a MINI but the physics are the same as the little ones.

    Please put you car's particulars in your signature, then you don't have to add it each time you post a question. We have short memories and don't always remember what year and model car you have from your previous posts.

    Dave
     
  13. Jason Montague

    Jason Montague New Member
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    :cornut: Thanks Dave. I love to hear engineers talking that engineer stuff:lol::lol::lol::Thumbsup:

    Jason
     
  14. Bster13

    Bster13 New Member

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    Thanks Dave for the reply, that definitely helped.

    Definitely... that's why I linked to the thread on the Nissan forum (10 psi on a big turbo and small turbo-How come one makes more power?!? : KA24E / KA24DE Forum) as it made logical sense to me.

    But if you're saying the difference is miniscule (given the same constants/mods) because the turbos are so similarly sized even if folks are pushing the MCS turbo slightly out of their efficiency range, then I can see where you're coming from. Then it comes down to what the N14 MCS can safely handle for torque/hp and at this point I don't have a solid bearing on that, and perhaps there is no definitive. If there was a TQ/HP # to shoot for then that would help in selecting the MCS or JCW turbo as the MCS tops out at 215HP in its efficiency range from what I've read. (215hp on what dyno? Who knows)

    Agreed on the IC, and I don't doubt the benefits of Meth, but I'm still dreading the install, maybe I'll get into it and it won't be that bad. Thus far I've completed all mods by myself so I'd like to continue that trend if possible. I agree on Howerton.

    From what I've read the PSI is not the problem, it's the CFMs. A bigger turbo vs. a smaller turbo at the same PSI, will cram more air into the cylinders and with proper tuning will generate a bigger bang and thus more stress. I also know the N14 has a limit of somewhere around 20lbs due to a limit with the ECU going into protection mode so I'm wary of that. Another thought on the N14 puking was not only carbon buildup or high PSI, but boost spikes due to tuning difficulties. An idea I read about was to install a manual boost controller to bleed off PSI when needed before the ECU sees the spike and goes into limp mode and more importantly before the engine sees the extra boost.

    Unfortunately I don't see any tuners coming around any time soon, so I may have to opt for dyno time and email logs. Not optimal, but better than canned I suppose. But I didn't know the Cobb was the only option for real time, thx for the tip.

    Signature added, another good tip.

     
  15. Nathan

    Nathan Founder

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  16. DneprDave

    DneprDave Well-Known Member
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    I wasn't aware of Battle Tuning, it is also looks like it only works on N14 engines and does work through the OBD2 port, like an Access Port. Also it is still manufactured, unlike the AP.

    Dave
     
  17. Bster13

    Bster13 New Member

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    Battle Tuning (US rep of DNA tuning in the UK) has a group buy ending on another website by the end of the month. FYI.
     
  18. Jason Montague

    Jason Montague New Member
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    :cornut: Just curious as I have all of y'all gathered around. Would battletuning work on an 08 N14 JCW engine. Remember that the JCW ecu codes were hard to break and if done incorrectly resulted in permanent 'limp mode'. An unnamed dealership did this to me when trying to reprogram my JCW with MCS ecu codes(long unscrupulous story). This was a mess and resulted in my car being down for 2 mos, and several firings while dealer- MINI USA- MINI UK- BMW Germany finally got me a new JCW ecu tune. Just asking.:Thumbsup:

    Jason
     
  19. Nathan

    Nathan Founder

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    According to their site it is N14 only.
     
  20. Bster13

    Bster13 New Member

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    Evolve's Dyno graphs of their R56 MCS with JCW Turbo (no clue on longevity at that power, don't think I'll be headed to those heights):

    evolve MINI R56 Cooper S - Page 36
     

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