Suspension Brakes 1st Gen Most liked posts in thread: Succeed where everyone/thing has failed...

How about the TSW/KW setup? Sounds like a V2 setup would fit the description.

 

I try to stay very vendor neutral, but I know some local track junkies that now have the latest TSW coilover set that DrMike setup with the KW folks specifically for the R53 and speak very highly of them. I have no complains with my AST setup from them, but those are no longer available..

 

We set up the V2's for street/track duty. They have a single adjustment, so it's easy to set them up and not get lost. The spring rate we sell with them (roughly 325 lb/in) is a wonderful balance between a stock ride and a full track setup.

We can mix it up, though, and put heavier springs on the V2 set if desired, as we do for the more track-oriented V3 setup.

I have the V3 setup with 400 lb/in springs on my car, and I drive it daily. The high-speed valving on the KW takes the edge off of the nasty roads out where I live, so the ride is quite nice. It's probably too much for a place that has highways full of 2" chuck holes, but for reasonable roads it's really not a problem. And on the track - oh man is it sweet!

 

I have the TSW KW V2's and they kick butt! They are on an R56 FWIW.

Let me start off by saying that no suspension that performs well on the track is going to be great on the street, the goals between the two are just too far apart. That being said, the KW's are very tolerable on the street, some might go as far as say they are a better ride than stock. That would be a matter of perspective.

On the track they handle exceptionally well, the car feels very balanced and predictable. If I had it to do again, I wouldn't hesitate getting the KW's.

 

I would recommend a coilover that has limited adjustment, like others have stated. The KW V2 would fit this bill nicely, however they'll need a new top hat which is annoying and it'd require some research to figure out what spring rates are acceptable for the damper curves. From what I can tell the included springs are too soft for a track setup.

Doing a BC/Swift setup is in the same price range, and isn't too tough to setup since compression and rebound are tied together. With its less overall travel is better suited for most track setups. The only hesitation is I'd have to walk you through their assembly, which isn't too tough. Adjust the overall length to minimum, and then set spring pre-load to zero [assuming normal spring rates like 8kg/mm front and 6kg/mm rear]. From there the damping would be something like 13 clicks from soft front and 12 clicks from soft rear. This combo is do-able at 1000+450

I would offer a recommendation on the Cross [with Swift springs], but nobody has any info on them other than "they're great, I love them", which is barely helpful. I handled a set at WMW's booth at MOTD this year, but was unable to get any good measurements as I didn't feel like getting in trouble dismantling them on the spot! They appear to be a higher quality BC-ish but with an inverted monotube front strut, but also lacking the rear pillow ball mount [you'd have to use stock, meh]. Allegedly their compression and rebound are also tied, which makes setup easy. Doing this setup however would be relatively expensive at 2300+450.

I wouldn't bother with lowering springs as they aren't going to offer enough compression travel to be predicable through rough corners. I drove Nathan's AST/Swift setup at MOTD and it showed great promise, so keep those in mind too. Does TSW still offer these? They're not on their website anymore.

I guess that's all the input I have for now.
Ryan

 

From talking with Jeff before I bought the TSW KW's they are running their own spring rate not the stock springs that normally come with them. My understanding is that Dr. Mike worked with the KW engineers at the track to determine the correct rates. This was a large factor for me in choosing the KW's vs something like the Cross's, the TSW versions have been engineered specifically for the Mini.

I also inquired about the springs, knowing that the Swift springs have a very good reputation for their linear rate, and apparently the KW springs have a very linear rate as well.

 

I'm not sure why a new top hat is annoying, since the TSW V2 sets come with new top hats. Maybe I missed something there.

I agree that the springs provided by KW in their off-the-shelf V2s for MINIs are way too soft for the track. That's one reason we worked with KW at the track to put together what we feel is a much better package.

The TSW valving on the V2s works well with springs stiffer than the street/track springs we usually provide with the V2 set. We can and will put together custom sets for customers - just give us a call.

TSW does not carry the AST line any longer. We've moved over to KW because we are enjoying quick, responsive and extremely competent support from them. We feel that the benefits to the customer will be very evident.

 

If I may drmike, none of that information is on TSW's website. Knowing the V2's come with top hats is good to hear, perhaps the 'site picture should be updated to reflect that. I would appreciate seeing added to your website the TSW specific information regarding valving the spring rates [digressive or linear, X Lb/In springs?], as that clearly differentiates your version of the KW coilovers above standard KW catalog offerings.

I'll revise my statement to say it's still annoying KW's don't come with camber plates; that and the lack of length adjustment are the only two things keeping them from being an irresistible choice, IMO. While I'm keeping my temper in check, why the hell don't suspension manufacturers EVER publish stroke and bumpstop data?! :mad5:

 

Perches: yeah, the front perches are not in the pictures. We will fix that (when??? So little spare time these days, as Jeff, Scott, and I each have two jobs). It does say, "This system is custom made for TSW and was track tested with the help of the KW support team. It comes complete with 60mm springs and perches selected specifically for the MINI" in the description, but of course it also says the struts match up with "our 60mm camber plates" which are not currently available. Sigh.

We will be addressing the camber plate issue ASAP - stay tuned. As for publishing specific data, hmm. It's not like we keep it a big secret (besides, it's written on the springs!), so we could put the spring rates on the website.

By length adjustment, what do you mean? Length of stroke, or length of the rod, or something like that?

 

Of course we'll be really eager to hear your feedback!

 

I look forward to hearing your feedback as well.

Doing a 400#/in front and 500#/in rear spring setup is very aggressive. Your car will oversteer easily, so be on top of your counter-steering. The car will also be willing to snap its rear out through bumpy corners as the spring rate bump balance front-to-rear is very slow, meaning the car will be naturally unstable at high speeds. A more balanced spring rate centered around 70MPH [with a 400#/in front spring] would be in the 275#/in to 350#/in depending on your weight balance [i.e. removed rear seats, light exhaust, light battery and the like].

Of course, all that is based on my suspension spreadsheet and experience. I should start a new thread or something that publishes all the motion ratios and suggested wheel rates based on a few fundamental setup criteria [like auto-x, road-course tracks, fast street]

Is anyone else using a 400/500 setup on a road-course track? I can see it working for auto-x but being too tail-happy for track work.

 

I agree with that, it's quite aggressive.

Looking at the weight distro alone on the MINI, I would agree with you, not to mention a more in-depth analysis. But experience has shown me otherwise. Even with 400# springs at both ends (and a 19mm rear bar on "full stiff"), the MINI is not really prone to snap oversteer unless the rear control arm bushings get bad, and then watch out! I ended up swapping out my rear springs for 450# springs to match up with the stronger front swaybar I have, and the car is still quite neutral.

I'd love to see your numbers, it would be very educational - I hope you do this.

 

The short of it is the front motion ratio is 0.99:1 and the rear motion ratio is ~0.875:1. Motion ratio is the proportion the spring axis moves compared to the wheel hub.

Here's an example to chew on:
I run 391#/in front and 279#/in rear springs [7kg/mm front and 5kg/mm rear]
This means my front wheel rate is 387 pounds per inch and my rear wheel rate is 244 pounds per inch. Let's make it easy and say my corner weights are 750/e front and 400/e rear, for a total [dry] vehicle weight of 2300 pounds, with 65% on the front end. I run zero pre-load on my springs, so that means I have 1.9" droop in front and 1.6" droop in rear. I don't have it front of me but there is a quick formula to calculate how even and level the car articulates over a bump in the road versus speed. To do this you need the rear end should have more relative spring resistance in comparison to its corner weights. I usually choose a speed of between 70 and 100MPH because this is a good average for most club circuit tracks. At this "balance" speed, the car will react most neutral in terms of bump disruption. Going slower than this balance speed invites understeer, and faster invites oversteer. The effect of a soft rear spring will be the car feels like it's dragging booty, whereas a stiff rear spring will feel like a bucking bull, kicking the rear end up. Thankfully there is a reasonable middle ground, and the dampers can help quench some of the spring rate preferences. Remember that spring rates determine yaw through corners and the dampers just help settle the car during transitions.

The other big aspect is the swaybar. Because I choose to run soft wheel rates, I compensate with huge swaybars [mainly because my coilovers have limited total stroke]. I run a H-Sport Comp in front on "soft" and the same in back on full-stiff. I'm leaving out all the geometries for now. Running stiff swaybars means you have to run sticky tires, and my Hoosiers fit that bill. My car understeers significantly on street tires [even "street class" tires with 180 UTQG], but is perfectly neutral on Hoosiers. This means I can throttle steer during at-limit cornering to adjust yaw if I've messed up my line [lift to tighten radius and mat it to widen my line].

Now, since Bimmer Lite is running a soft rear swaybar, it's clear that he can run a stiff rear spring to get a similar overall dynamic wheel rate [which accounts for both spring and swaybar]. The downside is he'll run more body roll [which may put instant centers outside preferred regions] and more damper travel, which means the car may be more upset by mid-corner bumps since he'll be closer to bottoming his bumpstops.

I hope that makes sense to someone!
Cheers,
Ryan