2nd Gen R56 Cooper S Most liked posts in thread: The 'Carbon' Problem...

  1. Metalman

    Metalman Well-Known Member
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    Pic's from M/T
    R56S valves at 27k
    [​IMG]

    R56S valves at 58k (one after cleaning)
    [​IMG]

    Comments;
    The 27k car had slight hesitation with half throttle acceleration, while the 58k had a massive flat spot and major hesitation with all throttle positions.
     
  2. Crashton

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    From what I understand the main carbon build up seems to be on the back of the intake valves. Running Techron through will certainly help the combustion chamber & piston top stay clean, but I can't see how it would be able to clean the back of the intake valves. Being direct injection the fuel/Techron does not go past the intake valve.

    Looks like the MINI version of the Italian tune up is to drive it until completely warm.

    Rather disturbing that MINI does not recognize this as their problem.
     
  3. Metalman

    Metalman Well-Known Member
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    Das German Enkineering Roomin

    Yah..... Hinerich, das esn Peugeot's kerlunkinfukin, nict esn BMW/MINI (much German laughter in the background):eek:
     
  4. Rixter

    Rixter Well-Known Member

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    That reminds me...
    Das German Coastguard
    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gh5xu35bAxA]YouTube - FUNNY! SOS! MAYDAY! SINKING![/ame]
     
  5. Metalman

    Metalman Well-Known Member
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    So it seems it's a progressive thing (obviously). The wet becomes completely chemically un-reactive with the operating temperature at the point where the valves are located. The oil laden fumes are constantly bathing the valves with the "wet" solution (PCV system). The Seafoam doesn't touch the completely chemically un-reactive carbon buildup (or very little). So the Seafoam only addresses the wet and only at the time of application. As soon as the engine is started after a Seafoam treatment, the process starts immediately again and continues until the next treatment, but only for the wet contition. If the Seafoam isn't constantly being applied, the carbon buildup wins. The addition of the oil catch can have the ability to stop the carbon buildup if it's 100% effective (which they aren't). So the best we can hope for is a slowing down of the carbon problem with a OCC.

    Or the physical removal of the un-reactive carbon buildup with the current BMW/MINI "walnut" method (expensive). And this method is also just temporary but addresses the chunky carbon buildup completely at the time of treatment.

    OR become a traveling salesman that does a lot of interstate highway traveling versus the short run stop and go pattern that speeds up the buildup.

    For the Seafoam to really work it would need to be constantly applied to remove the "wet" before it becomes chemically un-reactive..... I'm not convinced the Seafoam really offers much. The only argument there is would be if you didn't do a treatment the wet it would remove would eventually become the hard carbon.

    Seems like the best thing to do would be to install the most effective OCC there is ???? and do the walnut method when required.

    Your mileage may vary.
     
  6. Redbeard

    Redbeard JCW: because fast is fun!
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    Agreed.

    Short of a problem with the car (i.e. throwing a code) or paying labor for the time, no.

    I have seen that they do a good job in removing some build-up in engines but not completely removing it. That has been documented on the sewing site.

    Water-injection and intake cleaning solutions, frankly, scare me because I'm not experienced with them and there is serious risk of hydro-locking the motor if done improperly.

    As far as the re-flash it does push up the idle so that may help heat the engine faster. Beyond that if the intake valves aren't open as long as long that may prevent more of the carbon build-up. I have no clue if it really does or doesn't work.
     
  7. Crashton

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    The Techron will help keep the injectors clean along with the combustion chambers. It is not going to do a thing for the intake valves due to your MINI being direct injection.
     
  8. BThayer23

    BThayer23 Well-Known Member

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    Check this article out. It's a fantastic breakdown of DI and how the carbon buildup affects cars. Sounds like early DI engines are particularly sensitive, before they figured out how to re-route PCV valves and EGS lines and alter the combustion. Case study is an RS4 that loses 1 hp every 500 miles.

    Direct Injection Fouls Some Early Adopters - AutoObserver
     
  9. Redbeard

    Redbeard JCW: because fast is fun!
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    So, Saturday I had my intake carbon cleaned by MINI of Monrovia. I asked the tech to take a few pics. He did and e-mailed the attached pics to me. He wrote in the e-mail:

    "Cyl1 was the worst at level 4 carbon build-up. Cyl4 was a 3. Cyl2 & Cyl3 were both 2s. I only took a picture of Cyl2 since they were the same. This is on a scale of 1-9. 1 is clean/new car. 9 is a non-functioning engine."

    I spoke with my SA and the tech when I went in to pick-up my car. He was actually working on a 2009 MCS with 24k miles. It had Level 8 build-up on the 1 & 4 cylinders and level 5 on the 2 & 3. Apparently the engine was throwing misfire codes and obviously running like crap.

    It does look like how the vehice is driven and cycled that will effect how quickly the carbon builds-up on the valves. Short-trips where the engine doesn't get to full temp and run at temp for a while (typical short commute to work) expedites the effects.

    There is no real way to stop it. It can be deterred for longer periods of time with correctly placed catch cans and driving habits that run the engine to temp and keep it there. Less substantiated is hard driving (Autox & track days) seems to help as well but unfortunately I don't have enough reference points to make an anecdotal observation.

    For reference here is a summary of the condition of my car and the driving habits at the time of cleaning:

    -2010 MCS Manual
    -58,653 miles
    -ECU Reflached by MINI of Monrovia with a tune that was intended to reduce carbon build-up on manual MCS with N14 engines @ 31k miles
    -Daily commute 30 miles one-way (60 miles a day; 5-days a week) with approximately 30 minutes of driving at 65-80mph
    -Rev-match down-shifts
    -8 full track days (High revs for 20-25 minute sessions; 5 sessions/day)
    -26 Auto crosses (high revs for short 30-60 second bursts while at op-temps)
    -Oil changes performed on "half-cycle" intervals (ususally around 7-8k miles)
    -All other maintenance performed per MINI USA recommendations
    -Chevron 91 octane fuel used at all times.

    If you take a look at your intake at any time please post-up pics and list what the condition of your car is as I have above. Collecting pics and reference points would helpful to everyone.
     

    Attached Files:

  10. Redbeard

    Redbeard JCW: because fast is fun!
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    Gasoline on the backside of valves does, in fact, help keep this kind of build-up from happening. It certainly doesn't prevent it entirely. Crack open any vehicle that has PCV with TB or port injection and after enough miles some stuff will build-up on the valves. That's usually after 150k+ miles and not as "bad" as my MINI was after 58k miles. It's the PCV recirculating oil vapor and particulates back into the the intake manifold that is the direct cause. BThayer23 posted a great article link earlier in the thread: DI Fowling Early Adopters

    I haven't heard of non-DI engines having this sort of rapid build-up. Do you have any links to articles or technical info? That would be great to add to this thread.

    I'm friends with a guy who is master tech at Audi and they have had the same DI carbon build-up issues. He did tell me that it wasn't an issue when they were still port injected.

    There are some DI engines from Toyota and Audi/VW (TFSI Engines) that have a secondary injector(s) behind the valves. I haven't heard/seen any info that shows this is more or less effective.
     
  11. B.A.D.

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    #83 B.A.D., Mar 24, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 24, 2012
    I think MM is going to hire these guys

    [​IMG]
     
  12. Metalman

    Metalman Well-Known Member
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    So that's how they make the walnut chips..... I was wondering how they did it....:D
     
  13. Metalman

    Metalman Well-Known Member
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    Yep, got the pickup tube a week or so ago... Real nice German aluminum casting with multiple step vacuum attachment fitting. The small hole is for the high pressure wand that shoots the crushed walnut shells at the carbon buildup.
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    I haven't had time to build the rest of the system. Need to make a pressure pot and Harbor Freight sells the walnut chips in two different grits.
     
  14. Redbeard

    Redbeard JCW: because fast is fun!
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    From the few before and after pictures I have seen (mostly sewing site) it looks like it does a decent job removing the "wet" contaminents. Regular use would help prevent further build-up but I haven't seen anything that shows it stops or reverses the build-up. I believe that it would idle better as that was the only noticeable difference (that didn't require measure with diagnostic tools) I had after the walnut blasting on mine.

    The problem is that the carbon build-up on the valves that has caked-on is almost completely chemically un-reactive and it's small particulate nature means that it "grabs on" hard to surfaces.

    In a past life I worked for a firearms manufacturer and repair company. I was at the bottom of the chain so I spent 90% of my time cleaning repair jobs. AR-15/M-16s almost always had a similar carbon build-up on the face of the gas-piston just before the rings. The only way we could get it completely off, without using the sand blaster (which is like using an A-Bomb to kill a fly), was to use dental scraping tools and some serious elbow grease.
     
  15. Justa Jim

    Justa Jim Well-Known Member
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    I'm guessing that wasn't a justa. :lol:

    Jim
     
  16. Metalman

    Metalman Well-Known Member
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    ^^^:prrr::prrr::prrr:
     
  17. Rixter

    Rixter Well-Known Member

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    Once I'm done with the warrenty, I will be doing that. I also have the BSH OCC, but not their boost-tap (well I actually do have that, but it's somewhere in my basement). I just wish there was a dual-OCC option
     
  18. Thumper460

    Thumper460 Active Member

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    OK..OK I read most of this... BUT.. IF you dont go to the chemical... are the Head being removed and then dis assembled and the carbon cleaned?? Is this what a lot are getting done??

    Just aSKING.................

    Thumper
     
  19. Metalman

    Metalman Well-Known Member
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    If chemical.... Do you mean the Seafoam or similar method???? That doesn't seem to touch the "baked on" hard carbon buildup on the valves. If it's under warranty and the dealer has the "walnut" kit, the lower cost, quicker method is the walnut blast with the head left on the engine. Seems to be a two hour or so job to perform. The pulling of the head requires more labor which equates to more expense. Especially if a replacement head gasket, head bolts antifreeze etc, etc, etc, gets replaced.
    The pulling of the head would allow all the carbon to be removed. The walnut method probably leaves a very small amount around the edge of the valves and maybe directly behind the valve stem, since the wand and the walnut particle size limits 100% removal. Boils down to a cost trade off.
    What is not totally clear..... BMW/MINI has progressively improved the design of the PCV system. Are any of these improvements having any noticeable reduction in carbon buildup?
    For the average R56S owner.... I suspect the "walnut" method, with leaving the head intact, will suffice.....
     
  20. DneprDave

    DneprDave Well-Known Member
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    Any engine problems with the R56 also apply to the R55.

    Dave