Tire Wear Analysis Request

Discussion in 'Track Days & HPDE's' started by RonsMinnie, Jul 6, 2010.

  1. RonsMinnie

    RonsMinnie New Member
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    #1 RonsMinnie, Jul 6, 2010
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2010
    Just completed my first HPDE and would appreciate help in analyzing my tire wear and recommendations for next track day.
    Track was was asphalt on 95 degree day. Tires had approx 4,000 street miles before event.
    Set up:
    MINI 2009 Clubman
    Front Camber 1.7
    Toe - 0
    Rear Camber 1.5
    Toe - 0
    Tires - Toyo R1R 225/45/15

    The complete set (nominal even wear on both rears) & (heavy wear on inside of both front)
    [​IMG]

    Both DS&PS Front show heavy inside wear with no feathering across tire.

    Drivers Side Front
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Passengers Side Front
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Should I change camber (Inside wear was probably exaggerated by poor driver technique of "scrubbin" through corners--Hopefully I will smooth out some in the next event)?

    Should I Rotate front to back for my next event or just cord out the fronts and then replace?

    How was tire pressure? too much -- to little?
     
  2. goaljnky

    goaljnky New Member

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    What shocks? Many ways to skin a cat. Here I would say you could have used less pressure, but that depends on other factors.
     
  3. RonsMinnie

    RonsMinnie New Member
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    #3 RonsMinnie, Jul 6, 2010
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2010
    TSW KW V2s Coilovers 7kg springs all around.
     
  4. goaljnky

    goaljnky New Member

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    What was your experience like? Did the car push? Did you have a lot of wheel spin coming out of the corners? What was your impression of how the tires were performing?
     
  5. RonsMinnie

    RonsMinnie New Member
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    I new so define "push" please.

    Not a lot of wheel spin (just a cooper power)

    The car felt balanced -- no plowing into corners or wagging the tail -- some slippage to the outside when carrying too much speed into a corner.
     
  6. goaljnky

    goaljnky New Member

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    Push is under steer. Or, slippage to the outside. This definitely looks like a case of over inflation. It will usually let itself be more known with a little more HP (such on an S), but not so much on Justas. I have both, so I am able to compare.

    Do you know how to use a temp probe to adjust your tire pressures?
     
  7. minimark

    minimark Well-Known Member

    Jun 24, 2009
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    What air pressures did you start out with?

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  8. RonsMinnie

    RonsMinnie New Member
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    #8 RonsMinnie, Jul 6, 2010
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2010
    Tire pressure cold 38 psi.

    I have a fluke infared thermometer.

    And Thanks--
     
  9. minimark

    minimark Well-Known Member

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    Way to much air, in that heat, if you were pushing it, hot it was probably mid 40s. Last Friday at CMS, about 90° I started out cold at 35 and by the last session had dropped about 5 pounds of air.
    2 cents

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  10. RonsMinnie

    RonsMinnie New Member
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    What are you seeing on the tires that tell you that ( I want to learn to read the tires).

    Thanks
     
  11. goaljnky

    goaljnky New Member

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    Cold is a starting point. What's important is hot. I try to take mine as soon as I get off the track as that is what you end up using.

    To use your IR thermometer:

    As soon as you get off the track take three temps: inside section, center section and outside section of the tire. Do this for both left and right fronts as some tracks can be left dominant and some right. You went to adjust your tire pressure to where all three measurements read the same or really close.

    If they are same or close (within 5 degrees or so) you are dialed in. If your inside temp is higher then the rest, you are overinflated. If your outside is higher then you are under inflated.

    Keep in mind that the IR thermometers are not ideal, but an acceptable option. They fault lies in the fact that they read the heat being radiated by the rubber vs. a proper heat probe ( the ones you insert into your tire) that read the actual rubber temp. However those are pretty expensive, thus us weekend warriors use IR options.

    Of course there is the chalk method...
     
  12. minimark

    minimark Well-Known Member

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    I look at the edge of the tire, there should be little arrows there and you should be rolling over Just to the arrow. Some use a bit of white shoe Polish on the edge to tell how far the tire is rolling over too. It's a cheap way of doing it without measuring tread temps but effective. When measuring the tread temps across the pattern it should be done as soon as you get off track, the heat changes very quickly even during the cool down laps....
    Again 2 cents.

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  13. Vader

    Vader New Member

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    Ron,
    As far as I recall, there was very little in your driving style that would have caused the excessive inside tire wear.
    A question I have is how did the front tires look before the event? I ask because I know from experience that street driving with 0 toe and -2 camber in the front caused inside tire wear on my street tires while the same settings produced even wear on the track with my track only tires.
     
  14. minimark

    minimark Well-Known Member

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    Yea my next question was who did the alignment and could there actually be more negative camber than what you think..... All alignments are not equal......

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  15. TGS91

    TGS91 New Member

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    Looks like you have a set of track tires now :D

    That seems even above and beyond Proxes which are pretty notorious for quick wear

    I'm running General Exclaim UHP's and my first HPDE I noticed allot of wear on the front right tire on the outer edge, instructor was not all that surprised due to all the hard left turns. My plan was to rotate front to back between days of the event next time.

    Any recourse with tire shop you bought from? (sure the HDPE trashed the warranty). Perhaps a discount on the next set?
     
  16. Mrsideways

    Mrsideways New Member

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    #16 Mrsideways, Jul 7, 2010
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2010
    Looks like wheel spin/camber/push issue to me. What diff do you have, What rear bar do you have? We flogged an 07 on hoosiers and much softer springs for a day here with similar camber and didn't wear the tires like that. But it was a constant fight trying to loosen the car up. I was running 40(hot) front and 55(hot) rear in it. FWIW 7k springs are just under 400lbs. That's not a lot of spring for that weight of a vehicle.
    If you think about it the only way to wear the inside edge of the tire on the front (with lots of negative camber) is 1) under braking (possible but not likely to wear them that bad). 2) going straight if the tow is not set right 3) wheel spin on the inside tire out of the corner (because the outside tire is loaded and should wear flat).
     
  17. BThayer23

    BThayer23 Well-Known Member

    Jun 12, 2009
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    Look on the sides of the tires. There's some small triangles that point towards the wear bars. If the tread is worn down the shoulder of the tire to the triangle, but not farther down the side of the tire, inflation is good. Take a pic of the side of your tires and look for those triangles (~ 1/4" high).
     
  18. RonsMinnie

    RonsMinnie New Member
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    Thanks to all for there input !!

    minimark & BThayer23
    -- pictures below of sidewalls, triangles are fine on both tires, still have "mold nibs" on PS -- I think we are sure they where not under inflated ?

    vader-- I wish I had inspected carefully before--- but I did not.

    I asked a friend who helped me get ready if he remembers, and he said he remembers a lot of wear ( not all what we are seeing now) but significant. Perhaps this and important contributing factor in where the tires are now.

    Did you feel the car was under-steering?

    Glad my driving was not as bad as I thought -- Thanks.

    Goaljnky-Thanks for the temp tutoring -- I appreciate it.


    Sidewall Pictures

    DS-Sidewall View Outside

    [​IMG]

    DS-Sidewall View Inside

    [​IMG]


    PS-Sidewall View Outside

    [​IMG]

    PS-Sidewall View Inside

    [​IMG]


    So where do I go from here?


    Lower cold pressures from 38 to 35 psi??

    Keep the tires in place and finish off the fronts at the next event then replace?

    Still would like to learn of how to read over-inflation wear. The classic definition is center of tire wear which certainly is not happening here.
     
  19. BThayer23

    BThayer23 Well-Known Member

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    #19 BThayer23, Jul 7, 2010
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2010
    Definitely over inflated. Here's where the tire should be worn over to (note tips of triangles):

    [​IMG]

    Check the tire pressure when hot. After you park and take off your helmet, it should be the third thing you do. 38 psi (hot) is a good place to start. I find my tires typically gain 4-5 psi between cold and hot, so start at 35 psi cold and let air out as needed after track sessions. If you let out too much air, you'll see the sidewall roll over more and wear past the tips of the triangles. Once you get a feel for it, 2-3 psi over or under is easy to feel from the way the car handles.
     
  20. minimark

    minimark Well-Known Member

    Jun 24, 2009
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    Agree, over inflated but there still could be more to it. I would rotate and just because the wear is not in the center of the tire does not mean it's not over inflated. This is the track not street and your running more negative camber which in a straight line makes the tire run more on the inside. When you go hard into a turn you want the outside tire to be as flat to the surface as possible, too much pressure will not allow the tire to conform (flatten out) to the surface. You'll be surprised by how much more grip you have when the tire pressures are kept up with....

    Of all of us here though, listen the most to Mrsideways, he's the one with the National Championships....;)

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