well... it's quite on that thread now. don't know if I bored them to death, or just pointout out the truth of what's there in the markets and they chose to be quite. Who knows. Someone else there started another thread about a cam for his dads justa, and I gave some generic info, then PMed him with some NS specific information. I didn't want to have to deal with another expoding thread.... Matt
Simple human psychology I think - people want to rationalize/reinforce that they made the right decision. "I own it, ergo it must be the best". Nobody says "yeah, it sucks and I wasted my money" on a regular basis. People get emotionally attached either because they want that assurance they made the right call OR even the opposite: they got burned by a vendor or product and are still hot about it (especially after being fed a marketing pitch about being 'the best'). Lost in all of this is empirical proof. Nobody in the MINI community seems to be doing much in the way of testing (without having a vested interest)
And it will never happen because no one would appreciate or support the amount of effort required. Time and time again test results are ignored/insulted/flamed for one excuse or another from whichever camp the results upset the most. The weather was too hot, the cam angles were wrong, the drivers weren't equally matched, the track was too tight, that dyno exaggerates, the testing methods were flawed, etc. One could test all they wanted and do it as unbiasedly as possible and all the sheep would still find something to complain about in an attempt to discredit it. It's quite ironic. The same group that sits and demands numbers as proof are the first ones to discredit the numbers when they're finally provided.
I "earned my stripes" by doing testing on intercoolers. About 50 full power runs to get good data on about 6 different set ups. A good 4-5 days of solid work to do it. A lot appreciated the effort but many had no clue about what it takes to create a good data set. When someone did an intake shootout, they had a good idea but a method that wouldn't give data worth anything. I tried to help, but the constraints of the cars and the testing facility meant that there was no way for the effort to get saved. My input was interpreted as criticism by several. I tested three different sized throttle bodies and found no measureable difference. The thread had about 10-15 comments tops, and died. Another thing I've noticed is that if one gives a very complete description of the method with good statistics that shows reproducable results that there is very, very little discussion and the thread quickly gets burried in the latest "what's the best intake" or "how was your morning" thread and is lost to history. If it's full of the BS back and forth of finger pointing and fan camps fighting it out, it stays up at the top of the list and keeps getting more posts, perpetuating the BS for even longer. I think this is one of the dangers of actually trying to learn from internet forums. The percentage of posts with content is dwarfed by the sheer volume of stuff with little or no content of any value. "facts" get decided by majority rule and the feedback mechanism is counter to that which finds and preserves the best information that is there to be had. As far as the cam thread, I predict that it will now die and get burried in obscurity. I took Jans post of the cam profiles and found that the RMW cam is very close to if not exactly one of the off the shelf Newman cams. I don't expect to see any fan camp from either side really posting any more stuff there any more. I may be wrong there, time will tell. To PGTs comments, I've read a couple books the bear directly on his points. Denialism looks at how people maintain very strong opinions about stuff even though they are not experts, or even really well informed, on the particular subject matter. Dan Airly's "Predictably Irrational" looks at how we behave and contrasts that with the "efficent market" hypothosis about how we make decisions. Both show that behaviours of all of us, differ from how we think we make decisions and behave. Both are very enlightening reads. Matt
Matt, i can confirm this one... We have had more than a few R53 owners who came into the shop for various head work and some have the RMW cam already installed. And the RMW cam markings are IDENTICAL (down to the same part # engraved on the side of the cam) to that of the Newman cams i bought from the UK I know many have said this many times on NAM, but i just thought i share our own finding to confirm this fact.
NAM is what it is.....lots of voices yelling.... Some yell loud, some yell good info,some useless crap... some folks are trying to steer conversations to try to make a buck, or give discounts to folks who yell their name....the loudest:mad2:, or use it as a method of advertising. I do post a bunch:aureola:....mostly on stuff from having had a MINI and having read the forums for 5 years, stuff folks could find if they searched, but posted anyway (OK...I do have a lots of mods, a tune, etc , and on the technical level, have dealt with SC/turbo motors+electrical systems). Heck, no matter how experienced folks are, how much of your free time do you want to waste on super basic questions....so NAM seems to be turning into a newbie site...where lots of folks go to to start....and when they graduate, or become more hardcore, they come here. Heck, it is amazing, the number of "old-timers" that never post anymore, either from disgust, or just from moving on to newer makes/models. It will be interesting to see if Dr O's cross posted thread on a recent subjects get edited out....it has some very good info!! I believe that since he is a vendor, it will, most likely not be touched. It does illustrate that the site is a commercial venture since the sale, and they are trying to protect the company.... I kinda wonder if the new mod some folks don't like, the one handing out infractions if on the corporate side, from the other boards.....and he is just interpreting the rules like on the other boards that have had a the same owner much longer.....and he does not understand the history of NAM..... I look at it as folks will someday get tired, and move on.... And guess what, the doors are open here!! :beer The personalities of these two sites are different, with more cerebral questions getting asked here....and the generic, tuner boy racer questions getting asked on NAM. It is kind funny...folks asked for "the BEST" on NAM not even understanding cars, like life, are a series of compromises!!
I posted this exact kind of comment years ago on the SCAT site, got me in trouble even back then.........:skep:
I find... that I'm given the benefit of the doubt by most mods on nam. I tend to be pretty calm in my posts, containing little BS or inflamitory content, and just share pretty much verifiable info. I think the no BS (but sometimes boring and often too literate in interpretation) has earned me a degree of lattitude. While I am a vendor, I wasn't always, and throughout my whole history, I've been more of a voice of reason than a voice of hysteria. Anyway, NAM is what it is. while I've got my own frustrations with the place, I don't think it's to the level of many here who are really disgusted. But anyway, NAM has achieved a degree of critical mass that few other MINI sites have. Anyway, no posts in the cam thread in a while, other than mine. "Smoke and Mirrors" hasn't made an appearance in a couple days. Life goes on.... Matt
For some reason this discussion brought me back to when I first joined NAM in 2005. You know, when: - Andy@Rosstech was providing the last bits of his testing and "outside the box" views - The man who shall not be named was some dude people called "El Diablito" - Randy Webb, who was the God of all things MINI and pulley parties, and was the main character in the sad "Randy Webb customer service debacle" - m7 was, well, you know, m7, the fathers of MINI marketing and "foot in the mouth" moments from Peter. - We experienced the experiment known as "Fireballed Tim" and its implosion from the tuner war show with the R56. - Doc Obnx was some guy that provided great technical info and testing results with excruciatingly long posts that began with a sentence on the title of the post (whatever happened to him? :devil - SpiderX was a guy in Atlanta who had seemingly an endless supply of dough and was willing to trust the vendors with his money to push the boundaries, which resulted in the infamous M62 experience. - Misfitoy had (and I believe still has) the most beautifully put together modified MINI And on, and on, and on... Would be a good thread by itself wouldn't it?
Now that brought back some great, and not so great, memories! Signed up with NAM in 2003 when it was a nice place to visit.
I was going to be Dave's second guinea pig but he sidelined me once Peter/M7 took over marketing the project (for which Dave I think has been sorry for every since). Hmm...not sure about that. Don't think that car is as nice as you think it is, relative to its mechanical running condition. Last I heard, Sid had many issues with it but that was LONG ago...hopefully he got it sorted but I think his priority was elsewhere (with the implosion of Gov Motors)
What I have experienced on nam is the beginning of new friendships that were developed on nam all but destroyed on nam. And that carried over to other forums as well. There are many here on MA that I use to talk with by pm's, e-mail, phone, I could joke with, share business ventures and some meet on club runs that now it is a series of cautious well considered responses to any threads shared by them. I can take the blame for some instances but for the most part the environment of some forums specifically nam influenced the events leading to the demise of some friendships.
Don't feel bad... there are all those chicks that singed up on the Nuts to look at you! Oh wait... I guess that didn't work out that well either... Matt
NAM has become money first, information second. That's ok; there are still many great vendors there (many of whom are over here). What's not ok is the site masquerading as an unbiased trough of information for all things MINI... I'm fine with paying vendors being protected, within reason. If they're paying, they're helping to maintain the site, they deserve first dibs, and hopefully the site users will try to preferentially use those vendors. But it's gone way beyond that over there--at least for RMW--Jan is basicially allowed to crap all over threads and forum members ad nauseum, whereas similar type of behavior from forum members results in warnings, bans, and removed posts. It's definitely not a level playing field. What NAM has is numbers. They've lost most of the "upper crust" to MA, and it's a huge loss to the site, but the problem is I suspect the majority of people over there don't realize that. So NAM keeps clicking along, IB happily collects their checks (even though vendors can't even get their incorrectly listed phone numbers corrected), and on the surface, all looks good. This is were I come to get information. NAM is where I go for the markeplace, to hopefully help people from making many of the mistakes that I did. And it almost always involves recommending that the OP call the vendors they're interested in and speaking to them directly. It's amazing how much grief I've gotten for that (including a warning, but admittedly I haven't gotten any lately, so maybe they're backing off a little).
I was reading your post and look at you total posting number here on MA Posts: 333 And then looked at mine prior this one......:frown2: :devil: :lol: GEEEEZ!