That statement insinuates they are inadequate; I didn't see a weak spring test, Thumper believed they qualified for his "race" heads. This SuperTech bashing is unqualified. The stock spring is "specifically made for the Tritec motor". As I recall the Cosworth add stated they were Ferrera valve springs on the clearance heads. You should research that discrepancy. [ame=http://www.motoringunderground.com/forum/showpost.php?p=394284&postcount=68]motoring|underground - View Single Post - Cosworth head[/ame]
So I assume you got a "deal" on these from Lynn correct? Bummer you had to replace those "Cosworth" springs. I'm shocked that a brand like Cosworth would try to save a couple bucks on springs So for the guy that spends the $500 + to have their springs replaced what should they expect? I've been running the same SuperTech springs for around three years and have never had a problem or felt anything was missing above 6500? LB LB
It seems that my request to keep this civil and informative has been overlooked. So I will repeat myself: Keep this civil and informative. I will edit out the usual unnecessary back in forth shortly.
This from the guy that gets deals from others...talk about pot calling kettle black. That argument is not going to work. Now lets tackle the Cosworth question. Like 99% of the companies that make stuff they have a price point in mind before starting gleaned from years of experience. Cosworth buys off the shelf stuff at times to meet these price points. There is also the size of the market to consider, why go design and build a spring for a very small market when there is a good alternative already in spring manufacturers catalogs. In this case Ferrera and Supertech both have a conventional dual spring that works. However, there are compromises made with these off the shelf springs. My take is the this newer spring has fewer compromises in the design. Don't forget, these off the shelf items have been around a few years now. While they work, there are some things learned over the past few years that may have the potential for incremental gains. Not really gains, but allowing more of the potential already there to be realized. We've been down this road with Intercoolers. We have seen how they don't make power, only allow for more of the inherent potential to be realized. One could use the well worn cliche' that the valve spring is evolutionary, not revolutionary. Longboard, how would know something is missing if you never had it before? I know you deal in the same sort of business. The company you work for creates products that reveal more of what is already there. Could it be possible that these valve springs work in the same manner? I should probably quit there but I can't... Are these valve springs for everybody. Heck no, there are lots of other lower cost items that will have bigger bang for the buck, but when you get into this rarefied air of getting striving to obtain the mythical 100% of the potential out of the engine these may help along with a hundred other little tweaks that individually add very little but in a properly designed system the sum is greater than the part.
Some words from the designer and the sales channel. The valve springs available in the past were the best options for the head builders. We thought that it was time to reconsider something more in line with the improvements in other performance parts over the years. We went to Crower and talked about what to do to improve the spring availability for the MINI market. What we found was that some of the features available with newer spring technology wasn't available in the MINI marketplace. Even a well known head company such as COSWORTH were not running there own performance specific springs. We called and talked to the engineering department at COSWORTH and were told that they use Super Tech and Ferrea dual springs and a MINI spec reproduction single spring for their MINI head program. In fact most Performance Head suppliers run either a factory spring, spec’d factory spring, Super Tech or Ferrea Dual spring with a spring seat locator for use in their heads. After learning all this, we decided to see if we could find or create a spring/retainer kit that was well tailored to the MINI performance head market. The NitroStick Spring & Titanium Retainer Kit is comprised of the an appropriate PAC Behive spring and a Titanium retainer customized for the Tritec engine application. PAC Springs are well known in the performance and racing arena with recognized design, engineering and fabrication technology. We selected a beehive spring (wound with PACs oval wire) and a customized Ti retainer. This is the first offering of these combined technologies that we are aware of. It is not a question of if you should but more a question of getting something that is specifically designed for the MINIs engine and takes advantage of the latest evolutions in the technology. The more traditional offerings for MINI valve springs are not bad or inferior quality in any way but it is time for improvements. Improved or better MINI Performance or replacement parts are a benefit for all of us. The MINI performance market is pretty small, and often overlooked by some of the larger performance parts suppliers. We offer this spring/retainer combination to bring the advantages of modern valve train technology to our market space, allowing for those that own a Tritec MINI to take advantage of the technology that is available to the larger performance markets. Really, a lot of this discussion went a bit sideways (and I myself contributed to that by not picking all my words carefully). Most of the springs used, in fact a majority, are good springs. What left room for improvement was the appication of a good spring to our engine, and people took what was available and did the best they could with it. We are offering a solution that has the improved geometry (no spacers required) when compared to some and uses the beehive geometry and smaller Ti retainers to lower inertial loads. And this is delivered to the market at a competitive price point. If you are getting a performance head or repairing head damage, talk to your head builder to see if these are products that are for you. Matt
Because they have a different radii at different height. Look at the stock springs on the front struts of your MINI to get an idea. But these look not really look like a beehive (narrow at the base, wider in the middle, narrow at the top) but instead seem to be wide at the base, and then taper in at the top. This smaller top means that the end that is doing most of the moving has less mass, and that a smaller and lighter retainer is used as well. Hope this helps.... Matt
So, what's it take to put these in? Well, you take off the cam and then use two tools: A valve spring compressor: Dr Obnxs' Really Cool Stuff - Lisle 16750 Valve Spring Compressor and something to pressurize the cylinder: Dr Obnxs' Really Cool Stuff - Lisle 19700 14mm and 18mm Air Operated Valve Holder these are both pretty inexpensive tools, I found them on Amazon for ~ $25 and ~$12. I put them on my blog here. There were some less expensive prices on Amazon but the shipping charges were more. Check around for the best price. I get 4% for stuff ordered off my aStore on my blog. I just put them there so that people can find them easily. I'll be putting a set of springs on my car to take some photos of the installation. Since my car has a lot of miles on it (112k), I'm guessing that it will be a good time to change the oil seals as well..... Matt
I may have missed it somewhere in here, but does anyone know what rate the stock springs are supposed to have? I have 2 stock heads on my coffee table in pieces right now and there's quite a range.
oops.... lol http://www.motoringalliance.com/forums/sponsor-messages/3508-true-performance-valve-spring-kit.html
See.... http://www.motoringalliance.com/forums/sponsor-messages/3508-true-performance-valve-spring-kit.html
How many springs did you measure? I'd heard that they are far from the same, but I actually don't know what they are supposed to be rated at. I was going to measure all 16 of mine and just find an average.... With two heads you have 32 so your stats should be better! I'd love to know what all yours measure for seat pressure with valves open and a spring rate..... From memory, I think the seat pressure with them open is supposed to be 80 lbs, but this could be wrong. Matt
So far I've measured both sets on the intake side, but I lost my first set of measurements and I'll have to re-do them. Of the 8 I have left in hand, my highest is 80 lbs, the lowest is 72 lbs. Not a huge difference but enough to annoy me, especially since my ~20k mile camshaft is showing some pretty good wear. My machine shop guy is telling me that it's because I hammer the rev limiter too often (admittedly), though, so it may not be entirely the valve springs' fault. $400 for a set of valve springs? I need a new hobby. Edit: measurements taken at an installed height measured at ~1.7", iirc. I don't have the data in front of me, so I'll double check them later.
Use all the 80 lb springs. The camshaft might show some marks, however as a roller, there should be NO Damage on the lobes. LOL everyone hits that limiter..yes!! just me......................... Thumper
Nice old thread. And a good one to bring back from the dead. I also have a Cosworth cylinder head with the whole Ferrea valvetrain, and i am also replacing mine with the Crower beehive springs and Ti retainers as we speak. Noone can blame the Ferrea valvetrain parts, i think they are second to none. And the Ferrea springs for the Cosworth MINI head are good for most people. The only reason i am replacing mine is because their max lift quoted is 10.5mm, which is very close to what most aftermarket cams are at the intake. The camshaft i want to use has 12mm lift at the intake, which even exceeds the coil bind of the Ferrea springs. I do not have a spring tester to measure the seat pressures and pressures at various lift points, but from the manufacturers quoted pressures, Thumper is right, Supertech beehive springs are softer/equal to stock springs at seat pressure, assuming the 39mm seat height that Supertech quotes is correct. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, to have the full picture we would need to know the pressures at various valve lift points. Ofcourse you can always shim the springs and bring the pressure where you want it, as long as you are not getting close to coil bind, depending on the cam/valve lift. On the other hand, the Crower springs are much stiffer. Maybe the seat pressure is a bit excessive actually. The install height is 41mm aprox with the Crower springs on stock valves/valve locks, and equals to 110lbs/in aprox according to the Crower spec sheet for these springs. That's a lot of seat pressure, 37% more than stock. If i could, i would increase the install height to reduce the seat pressure to around 100. And here's the thing. As long as you are not getting close to coil bind based on the valve lift the engine will run, softer beehive springs may be actually better because you can shim and set the desired seat pressure. Doing the opposite, reducing the seat pressure, is more complicated. And we should not forget that we are all (i guess) on hydr. lifters, they do not like too much pressure. Just for reference, the Ferrea quoted seat pressure is 95lbs/in. And i think this is close to ideal. Anything more is overkill in my opinion.
Good for you Nick but most people on M/A do not care about a build of this type. Please do not try and start up another silly posting web war. We have moved past the Lynn / Thumper / Mynes / RMW wars of old. If you want to start that crap up again feel free to do so on the NAM or MiniTorque but not here. Thank you
I don't think i tried to start any kind of tuner wars. And the spring discussion is irelevant to my build.
Nick I was born at night but not last night. :ihih: If this thread was not relevant then why did you post in a dead thread? Did you read the whole thread first? :frown2:
I have read this topic a long time ago, and the only reason i posted here is because there are decent posts regarding valve springs, and it's not a common discussion in MINI forums. And yes, it's totally irrelevant to my build type, my post contains information that can be usable to anyone with a first Gen MINI when he has to decide for vavle springs. I don't give a **** for your yankee tuner wars, i am a part of the mini scene enough years to know who is who.